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1943 Gibraltar B-24 killing General Władysław Sikorski

Discussion in 'WWII Films & TV' started by stgrhe, May 5, 2016.

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  1. stgrhe

    stgrhe Active Member

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    Many questions over they years have been asked about the 1943 crash at Gibraltar that led to the death of, among others, the Polish General Wladyslaw Sikorski, the Polish exile prime minister and chief of army. Some people claim this accident was in fact an assassination.

    I have just found out that there is a 1984 Polish film about this incident called "Katastrofa w Gibraltarze". I will be searching for this film, and I suppose there are other forum members who is interested too.

    Link to information on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Gibraltar_B-24_crash
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Thanks for sharing this. The cause of the death are still debatable .

    "A British Court of Inquiry convened on 7 July 1943 to investigate the crash, following the order by Air Marshal Sir John Slessor of 5 July 1943.[14] On 25 July 1943 the Court concluded that the accident was caused by the "jamming of elevator controls" which led to the aircraft being uncontrollable after take-off.[15] The report noted that "it has not been possible to determine how the jamming occurred" although it ruled out sabotage.[16] Slessor was not satisfied with the report and on 28 July ordered the Court to continue its investigation to find out whether the controls were indeed jammed or not, and if they were, then for what reason. Despite further investigation the Court was unable to resolve Slessor's doubts.[17] The Polish government refused to endorse this report because of the contradictions cited therein, and the lack of conclusive findings"

    [​IMG]
     
  3. stgrhe

    stgrhe Active Member

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    Another film that partly covers this event, is the British 1958 movie "The Silent Enemy". I simply forgot to mention that in my first post.

    The first part of "The Silent Enemy" is about the Italian Navy's attack on Alexandria using mini-subs.

    Whether one believes this or that about the Gibraltar crash, it is no doubt that there are too many "question marks" surrounding it. A lot of information can be found om internet, but one odd thing that is seldom mentioned is why the aircraft took so long time to get started after it got clearance. It is said to have waited for over fifteen minutes at the end of the runway for no obvious reason. Another very odd thing is the mail bag that apparently was thrown of before start.

    Whatever really happened we will probably never know, but it is indeed an interesting subject.
     
  4. YugoslavPartisan

    YugoslavPartisan Drug

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    I watched a documentary about this years ago and it was made like a conspiracy theory. Unfortunately I can't remember it's name.
     
  5. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    A little late but then, better to be correct. Unfortunately I will have to inform you that the Commander in Chief and Polish Prime Minister - General Wladyslaw Sikorski was 100% assassinated and made to look like an accident. Very clearly I am informing you that he was not touched, just his plane.
    Who? His own bodyguard using a different name, rank and documents did it under orders.
    Why? He wasnt liked by everyone and only a Polish operative directed by England could get close.
    Proof? Yes lots just ask me, hows that!
     
  6. stgrhe

    stgrhe Active Member

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    Other films, apart for the one mentioned in my first posting, and that cover the event, are:

    1. The Silent Enemy a.k.a. Silent Enemy from 1958
    2. The General - The Gibraltar Assassination (General. Zamach na Gibraltarze), a Polish film from 2009

    The Polish film speculates that Sirkosky was, together with his daughter, assassinated before boarding the aircraft, and that the people that boarded the plane were stand-ins.

    Personally I tend to believe Sirkoski was assassinated, but whether he actually was or not is another story.
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Ok, I'll bite...What proof?
     
  8. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Sorry its not to tease rather explain. I am the youngest son, (although old now) of Poland's most deadliest Assassin, he was actually used by 3 x Armies for 'mechanical work'. Yes Poland, England and the USA.
    These people really exhisted, and sometimes the 'Truth is Stranger than Fiction!'.

    I have just written a book in detail on exactly how General Wladyslaw Sikorski was indeed taken out by one of his very own, infact one of his 12 bodyguards!

    Made to look like an accident, the plane was tampered with under orders as they realised he was headed in a few hours for England. On the radio they played the signal 3 x unique songs in a row, my father went up to the aircraft and whilst there was a Guard inside.

    As for those other movies really? I am the only one and its the first time the truth came out before I die, which isn't too long away given my health, hence the reveal.

    My father was right there, but its not a simple and easy answer. My family was either of military or political history, even my uncle became Prime Minister of Poland in Exile over in England, but much later that he was promised by Churchill. Promised if Sikorski was removed the position but it never eventuated until decades later....Whois - Alfred Urbanski. He contacted his relative in Poland Whois - Franciszek Urbanski (Proces Szenastu) or The Trial of Sixteen to which Stalin tried to kill him.

    As my battered ex KOP Plutonowy father just escaped Stalag VB after the Germans killed his younger brother Janek, after sustaining abuse on the Third Reich Food Production farm who used to beat him constantly until he kills them one day and went on a crusade you could say to fight Nazis and Russians.

    He joins the legendary ZJ as a Salamander, they did not listen to the Polish in Exile Government, not one bit, this put Sikorski in their sights. They also believed in the Sanacja, something that Sikorski clashed with.

    In my book Polish Military Experts, Genealogists and WW2 Crash Investigators have all read it, even Aircraft Mechanics that know the Liberator!

    So my book is backed by as many experts that have read it, for example the best WW2 Aviation Crash Expert - Garth Barnard, attests this is the answer and he ought to know as he just produced before I told him the TV Documentary Series 'Sikorski's Last Flight!'. Now it will have to be corrected.

    We are the only ones claiming to have done this, to 'Right a Wrong!' as my father regretted the action until the day he died. Ordered by the ZJ when he was a Salamander and later worked as top Assassin for 'Polish Government in Exile' under Zbigniew Szubanski.

    It was 100% Political Assassination even if Sikorski wasn't touched, his plane was to get the same effect.....well lets put it this way shall we, its been 74 years later and people were still guessing, until now!
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  9. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    My book called 'To Live Well is to Hide Well' is the phrase from my Father who first said it to me in Latin.

    Then started explaining his past! So it is available online on one site only and will not be on Amazon or others as I choose where it goes.

    The authorized site is www.tolivewellistohide.wix.com/book

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Regretfully, I asked for proof, not family stories.

    What, exactly, in detail, did your father do to the aircraft?
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    He ought to know? Someone writes a book that supports his conspiracy theory and he supports it...More than a little self-serving don't you think? Now, if you wrote a book that said differently, would he still have supported it?

    It would be like writing a book about how FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, and getting endorsements from all of those who hated FDR. Well, no duh, of course they are going to support it.

    Do you have any non-biased supporters?
     
  12. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    I suspect the answer to that is "you'll have to buy the book"....... something which is very reminiscent of Mr Gerrard Williams and Mr Simon Dunstan and the farcical work of "non-fiction" entitled "Grey Wolf" a few years back.
     
  13. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Dear Takao

    You know you really need to wait as patience is a virtue, I like others may not be online when you are on, being on the other side of the world to Pennsylvania!

    It's only by accident I am up.

    Since I did mention that I would tell how as proof originally I will honor that, and that is all I will do as for detail that is why I produced a book. A book that you are way too quick to negate before you even read it, books are there for a reason to explain in more detail.

    As the apple didn't fall too far from the tree with me either, in past similar lines, being raised with weaponry and trained in all sorts. I can see precisely that you and George Patton have visited the site and Takao hopefully the website displayed okay on your Ipad as I don't know what it looks like on Safari 10.

    So I will give you this, my father was trained in weaponry, intelligence and sabotage during WW2 before he was unleashed. So I suggest if you wish to know how he remained undetected you will have to read the book as its there for that very reason, as its more than 71,000 words okay!

    He basically using a false name and false higher position of military rank complete with paperwork to back it, and all produced by the Polish Group's ZJ printing department was one of the 12 bodyguards to General Wladyslaw Sikorski. Then after being alerted that they wanted him killed by the "signal given" so he acted, what they call a sleeper (hence why they called them Salamanders).

    He walked up to the Liberator, even whilst there was a Guard "sleeping" in the rear of the plane and placed a "green cleaning rag" in one of the elevators. And that was it!

    No one would hear it, as it became dark, no one would see it and it allowed the plane to lift off, but then your in trouble! And yes this is backed by Aviation experts and many others of their own free will.

    I believe this solves it, if you wish to know more you know the answer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  14. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Oh and about the "experts" within the book, it is not something I even wanted, it's just that today people like yourselves expect to have some kind of proof or validation by some means of someone who knows a lot about something similar.

    I can assure you that during ww2 Assassins would not go around and ask for someone to take their picture during the act, the thing about them is they do it quietly and not obviously. Not even today.

    My editor suggested that it carries more weight if Polish Historians, and Air Craft Crash experts actually viewed the book after I wrote it and added their comments, and hopefully positive, so we did this and all agreed.

    And as for do I have any 'non biased supporters'? since you are referring to the book specifically......actually no is the answer!

    Simply there were a few that boasted loudly "rubbish" so we gave the manuscript to them, boy did their attitudes change after they had actually 'really' read the book all and I mean all were apologetic.

    Hence why we put the manuscript out to a large demographic group.

    I don't need to prove anything now, this is out there to inform, to right a wrong as I believe it was an error to kill him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Forgive my impertinence, but when I asked you for your "proof" you responded with a rather lengthy shill for your book. You shilling your book has nothing to do with me being on the other side of the world. Nor, did it provide the "proof" that I had requested.

    Actually, I have not visited the site, as I have not yet decided that it is worth my while to do so. Further, I don't know how it displayed on an iPad, I don't own one and never will, and Safari is another abomination on the level of MSExplorer/Edge.

    Yes, I know the answer...Buy The Book. Or, I could try the more expensive route - Buy a flying B-24, jam a rag in the elevator. Thanks, but no thanks.

    As to your "proof", it is, well, laughable. Yet another "conspiracy theory".

    It would seem that your "rag" theory will not fly(pun intended.
    If the elevator was jammed at the beginning of the flight, then controls were jammed then and there, the B-24 would never have been able to take off and climb in such a condition. The pilot would have reported the controls being jammed from the moment of takeoff - which he did not do. In fact, he reported pulling the stick back to climb after takeoff. Thus, it would appear that the "rag" placed to jam the elevator had fallen out. So, it would appear that if your father truly was an "assassin", he was quite inept or really lucky. I might even say, he was the Inspector Clouseau of Assassins.

    Second, given that the B-24 has tricycle landing gear, the elevator surfaces are somewhat out of reach of normal, and most abnormal, human beings.
    [​IMG]
    A ladder tends to be rather noisy, not to mention ungainly to maneuver around in the dark. This would tend to attract unwanted attention to our "assassin." Again, pointing to an inept or luck assassin.

    Third, given that a good many air crashes had survivors, especially one crashing so close to it's base, and from a survivable height. It would appear to be, again, a rather inept or lucky "assassin."

    That is my whole point...It would not allow the plane to lift off such as it did, as the controls are jammed in the down position from the get go. The B-24 should have had an abnormally long takeoff roll, as the pilot & copilot would not be able to pull back their control columns. The plane might rise somewhat as airspeed built up and the flaps exerted their full lift. What I do not know - is with the elevators jammed in the down, would the lift of the flaps be able to overcome the drag of the down elevators.
    This is a little simpler if the elevator is jammed in the neutral position, but still quite unbelievable, as the pilot still would have reported the controls as being jammed at takeoff.

    If I was your editor, I would have suggested an expert that had not recently completed a docudrama entitled "Sikorski's Last Flight.


    I would think you have to prove a Conspiracy Theory...Well, If you are out there to inform, you really should prove your Conspiracy Theory, rather than pour gas on the fire.
     
    lwd, RichTO90 and George Patton like this.
  16. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    My how when we call you out do you come up with rubbish....I suggest you take up another hobby and let the experts be as they are for you are neither!
     
  17. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Takao: some further reading A New Look at General Sikorski's Death: • Axis History Forum

    PS: yes I visited your site. It was not done on an iPad or any other Apple product. Would you be so kind as to tell me what I visited it using, as well as my visit duration and which pages I viewed? I'm curious to know what analytics software you're using.
     
  18. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Hi Alan

    I actually never said you had an IPAD or shall I say Macintosh product unlike the other guy.

    I have you down as using a PC Windows 7, viewing by Chrome Browser and it's version 59 and for example your screen is set at 1920 x 1080 and I know where you are in Canada but this is a public forum.

    Just would like to 'right wrongs' okay that were done a long time ago.
     
  19. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Havent read your book or visited your site...but:

    I would sack my "agent" if all they did was put a rag in an elevator...it could fall out or be pulled out by the wind forces created not to mention found in the pre-check all pilots do before take off...Luck or BS IMO.





    ;
     
  20. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Dear CAC
    My Agent?
    What are you talking about, this is the confessions of my father as to what he did. Is this what you mean.
    The rag was placed shortly as darkness set in I believe, you are talking Gibraltar 1943 arent we.
     

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