24,000 extra planes....

Here's an interesting thought to share...

I've just read from German historian Dr Horst Boog that it's been calculated that if the V1/V2 programme had never happened, or had never been pursued, the resources could have been used to produce an additional 24,000 fighters for the Luftwaffe.

I guess that then there would be supply problems of fuel and pilots but - it's an intriguing proposition.....

 

If Goering would have ordered to produce Me262 the Germans might have won the airbattle.

But if they started to produce bombers, then there would be no difference.

When did they begin producing V1 and V2's? I think it was around May 1944. If this didn't happen, then they might have stopped the invasion.

Just a thought.

 

Hmmm... Interesting one. Cancelling the V-missile programs certainly would have opened up some possibilities. From what I understand, as it was, the V1s and V2s didn't really accomplish much other than "terrorizing" the British (rather, just frightening them a wee bit, eh Martin ). So freeing up the resources and manpower used for the program would have been nothing but beneficial to the germans. Some things ot keep in mind...
The V-missile engines and construction in general used large amounts (I think) of some of the resources germany had an especially hard time getting- things like molybendum and other high grade steel and aluminum alloys, large amounts of rubber, and complex machined parts. I would bet that in many cases, the resources to construct, say, a ME262, were more or less present- but due to demands from the V-missile program, specific essential items would be funneled off, leaving a nearly-completed jet sitting useless. Get rid of the missiles, and that one small essential part would not have been diverted...
Also, keep in mind the manpower issue. Martin, you note the need for more pilots if the germans had used these extra resources for the Luftwaffe; but certainly, if the V-missile program had been cancelled, would not that have freed up large amounts of manpower in itself? I would guess (don't know!) that the manpower required for the V1s and 2s would be significant- both in number of men needed and training required for them. Had this not been necessary, these men could have been used for any purpose- and the germans would have been able to use the time spent training them on V-missiles for trainging in whatever other area was needed.

Interesting indeed...

 

If the V-1/V-2 programm would not have had acceptance then the materials would have gone into perfecting ground to air defence missile capabilities since this is where Germany was feeling it the most in 43-44. The destruction of significant fuel and parts plants needed to be covered somehow and the immeidate attention to protective staffeln was indeed encouraged. But with what ? Adolf had his mind somewhere else when he instituted the decreee of the 262 as a blitzbomber. He had to of been on drugs.....so with the essence of 24,000 fighters being produce, I find this rather exagerated, possibly maybe only 8-9,000 could of been achieved. What was really needed was something to combat the high altitude Mosquito bomber and the US P-51 Mustang. Thus the competitive firms Messerschmidt and Focke Wulf presented designs to combat high altitude performance in a single prop design. Focke Wulf won out with Kurt Tanks brilliant Ta 152, but only saw operative service first in III./JG 301 in January 1945. Much to late even at this time to alter the consquences of the inevitable.

E

 

As to the man-power: The Germans had problems getting enough pilots as it was. 24,000 extra planes, or even 9,000 would just have given the Allies more ground target practise.

For sure it would have freed the V1 and V2 people but I wonder if these were first of all 'good' enough to become flying personel (sorry, 'good doesn't cover it but my English is leaving me today). I am sure that any men qualified anyway to fly from these Flak regiments, would already been sent to flying school...anyway...

But I think Erich can tell more about the Luftwaffe's selection-process.

BTW, got a nice little, self-published book VERGELTUNG - Das Flak-Regiment 155 (W), which was a V1 regiment.

 

You are correct Stevin, the manpower of the V-1 missile sites as an example were not up to the higher Luftwaffe pilot standards. The men were strong but did not have the eyesight required or stamina to incure the altitude and combat performance that was needed from the cockpit. My freind Helmuth Reichert had a brother serving on one of the coastal V-1 positions and he was in charge of driving the lowly little tractor carts pulling the v-1's to their ramps. When the Allies starting plastering the area the unit was moved farther inland where he was transferred to a AA flak unit operating 88's, which he was already familiar with while serving in one of the Kiel 88 Flak positions earlier in the war. From a very small interview I did of him since he still lives in eastern Germany, he mentions that everytime the V-1 took off it scared the pee right out of him and he observed over 100 firings towards England. His eyesight really sucked big time as this was a factor why he was not a pilot(he wanted dearly to be), and or as a flak gunner or sighter. But would transfer the 88mm rounds from cases to the guns.....

E

 

The outcome would have been the same, no matter what Germany did with the resources saved and redistributed into other industry. D-Day was the end of the end. There was no stopping the jugernaught both east and west. I believe even if Germany had developed the Me-262 earlier, and the Super U-Boat, she was history.
Adolf was fighting the three U's: US, UK, and USSR, he bit off more than he could chew. Maybe if only two out of three, but not all three at once.

 

With Hitler´s strategy until 1943 16,000 ( 2/3) would have been bombers...anyway...



[ 15. January 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

Maybe the Germans should have built a quarter amount of V-1's V-2's (I dont think anyone with that technology just wouldnt use it) and with the other avalible resourses build Tanks. I think a lot more tanks could have helped Germany hold on longer.

 

Not sure on this one Brad... I think one of the reasons for Boog making the point was that the V1/V2 programme used resources ( materials, manufacturing, design, elecronics, etc ) that could have been directly utilised to build more aircraft.

 

Very interesting thread, Martin. Sorry I find it too late...

But I think that realeasing all those resources would have helped (even a little to production quotas). More and better planes were needed. But we come back to the same thing again: fuel and men... There would have been more engineers and workers to build planes, but where could you get quickly enough good pilots?

D-day was not the end of the end. The decisive point was in the other side of Europe... And the German U-boats COULD have done something in the West even in late 1944. But again, the West is secondary...

 

Hmmm, I can hardly believe in this 24,000 fighters. Do you know how many V1 and V2 have totally been built?

 

No, the 24,000 aircraft is accurate, I have also seen that other alternatives were 10,000 tanks, or 4-5 aircraft carriers.

The enormous cost in men and materiels was not only in the production, in fact it was predominantly in the Research and Development. The V2 project alone (which I consder to be the greatest technical absurdity of warfare) cost about 1/4 the cost of the manhattan project, and Germany had nowhere near the resources of the USA.

The V2 is one of the only weapons of war ever to kill more people in development than it did enemies in deployment. It was stupidity bordering on insanity that the project went from conception to production without a single cost-benefit analysis being done.

I recommend readong Mark Harrisson's excellent book, "The economics of the Second World War".

 

Hmmm, I don't deny it, but one more question:

What is the measure used?

The ratio can hardly be the same for:

- personel needed,
- money,
- time,
- and respective resources.

10,000 tanks weigh at minimum four times as much as 24,000 fighters, so it can't be the total amount of raw material. What's the all-in-all measure?

 

Numbers of V-weapons ( approximate ) actually launched against Southern England ; -

V1 : 8-9,000
V2 : 1,000

More precise information must be available somewhere about this, and this of course does not include test programmes, unfinished stockpiles, etc ( the latter particularly so in the case of the V2 ).

 

I read a while ago in the net on Himmler and his mythology projects and the site claimed that Germany put more money on studying the Nordic "rune" (?) writings than the US on the Manhattan project. Sorry didn´t find the site now.

I wonder if someone can confirm this? That´s a big load of money if it is true.

 

Kai, I can tell you that it is not true, unless Himmler had builtmore than 10 Universities like that of Berlin to study runnic writing...

 

While I would agree whole heartedly that the V-2 program was a colossal waste of time and money on the German part (some "costs" you left out...in 1944 50% of all German electronics production went to this program even though the Wehrmacht had a severe shortage of communications equipment, 80%+ of the potato crop went to alcohol production, even as the average German soldier, not to mention citizen, starved). Whether cancelling this program would have produced 24,000 aircraft (I severely doubt this myself) it would have freed up a substancial amount of production for other uses. One interesting one that could have occured was the actual production of the Walther closed cycle H202 (HTP / High Test Peroxide) U-boats like the Type XXVI. This was a coastal boat that could make about 25 - 30 knots submerged for short periods. As the V-2 program sucked up all the HTP it was cancelled.