AK-47 and MP44?

Split from "WW2 technology to today"

The AK-47 didn't have roots in any German design. I don't know why this is brought up so frequently - there is no WWII weapon which resembles the AK-47, except for overall internal mechanism of the PPSh-43.

 

Hell no !!!! the AK47 is a copy of the Stg.44... And do you know why?? Because the Stg.44 was the first ever assault rifle.

The AK47 also used a copy of the german Kurz-patrone for ammunition, both rounds have extreemly similar performance....

regards, KBO

 

The Russian 7.62X39mm is extreemly similar to the German 7.92x33mm round, and their performance is allmost identical... "so its kinda obvious that the Russian 7.62x39mm also is a copy"..

KBO

 

Besides the fact that the M.P.44 was not the first assault rifle (the first assault rifle was of a Russian design), the AK-47 does not even remotely resemble the M.P.44. I don't know where you'd get such an idea.

 

Pardon me? I have several sources that quote the maker of the AK47 as being developed from the last German assualt rifle. I suggest your sources to be rather, may I say, fantasy like.

The weapon that influence the AK47 in design and performance was the MP44, this is common knowledge. It is common to the army small arms training in the Canadian, American and Uk Commonwealth forces.

Source: 20th Century Guns, by David Miller. page 262. ISBN 1-55267-134-8
Source: Biography of the Inventor, History Channel, 2003.

http://collections.iwm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.988

http://www.gunsworld.com/mgp/mp44.html

http://www.rbgungraphics.com/ASSAULT.HTML

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sturmgewehr_44

When you say it does not resemble any WW II assualt rifle? Just look at the two weapons, the rifle butt is a mirror image, the size of the blocks and the barrels look quite close. The design and the effects of the weapon are quite close, let alone the clip design. If the Soviets did not make improvements on top of the MP44, by 1951, then I would say they were sleeping at the switch.
Then, with this said, if people want an exact match to the two then no they are not related in any way. Therefore every new car, truck, knife etc is not related in any shape or form, common sense needs to be a factor here otherwise everything will fall apart. Sorry but I don't think you have a leg to stand on in this one, even though you did present your sources for the arguments.

Cheers!

I guess we will have to agree that we disagree on this one.

By the way, I will continue to add to my post for my topics. This is mainly due to my discoveries as I go, so please don't feel entrapped by my postings.

Ok, I have posted as many spources and WWW sources as I can be bothered with. I rest my case in defense of my posting and opinion.

Cheers!

Cheers!

 

I must say that it doesn't surprise me that the History Channel makes such mistakes, but that authors does at well surprise me. I don't know if it's common knowledge, but common knowledge is repeatedly wrong.

Kalashnikov was no longer at the front by the time the M.P.43 and M.P.44 arrived with the troops, and could thus not have seen the weapon. In addition, Kalashnikov himself has stated that he never knew of the existance of the M.P.43 or M.P.44 until years after the AK-47 had been designed and implemented.

In addition, I have seen both weapons next to each other, and they look nothing alike, other than what could be expected for weapons of similar function. You might as well say that the Stengun was a copy of the M.P.28.
The internal design of the AK-47 and M.P.44 are completely different, operating on different firing principles.

 

An assault rifle is a cloning of a rifle and submachine gun, its ammuntion is a riflebullet with a medium cartridge..... and i have not ever heard of a Russian Assault rifle in ww2, please tell me wich one your talking about....

("Im getting the feeling you just disagree because you want to disagree")

KBO

 

Try to look for information about the Avtomat Fedorva 1916 AF-16, a 6.5 mm. automatic rifle designed in 1913.

 

[edit]it! Is it Maschinenpistolen '44, or Sturmgewehr '44?

 

It's both. To make things worse, some people call it the Maschinenpistole 43.

Actually Christian, in every article I have read and every program I have seen the AK-47 is described as a weapon made of parts of other weapons, notably the StG44 and the PPSh weapons.

If you consider a WW1 weapon to be an assault rifle then surely you would also call the BAR an assault rifle, however it was not. This is a weapon obviously developed before the conception of the idea of assault rifles.

 

Exept that wasnt an Assault rifle it used fullpower rifle rounds :kill:
The same round used in the "Avtomat Fedorova" (6.5x50mm) was also used in japanees bolt action rifles ("Arisaka"). its just like a SVT40 automatic rifle, now noone ever called that an assault rifle did they ??

An assault rifle uses Mediumpower rounds, a mix between a rifle round and a pistol round. A assault rifle must have the ROF of an SMG while it has to have the killing power and accuarcy of an rifle within 400m, and it must have medium recoil. Or else every Machinegun is an Assault rifle.

here's what the AF-16 looked like...looks more like an SVT40 or M-14 than an assault rifle, plus the fact it also uses fullpower rifle ammunition.

 

Well, that 6.5x50SR isn't that powerful, contemporary military rifle cartridges were more powerful than it. Besides, just about all major military cartridges were atleat 7.62mm, whereas Arisaka was 6.5mm. Definitely intermediate caliber.

And looks: Steyr Aug doesn't look like Stg.44 but still it is an assault rifle. And EM2 doesn't look like any other assault rifle, still it is one.
How weapon looks evolve during time, pistols from early part of 20th century look much differ than newer pistols. Besides, when new guntype is developed (assault rifle in this case), it will evolve fast: looks, power etc will change fast when new guns and new studies are tested and tried.
Same goes with other military (and civillian) designs, tanks from world war 2 didn't look much like tanks from world war 1.

All in all, I believe that Avtomat Fedorova was first assault rifle, maybe not that successfull and probably inferior to later designs.

About assault rifles: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

Edit: isn't M14 also considered as an assault rifle? And it has more powerful ammunition than Avtomat Fedorova.

 

Danyel
The name of the weapon we're discussing is M.P.44. The M.P.43 is the name of an earlier design, and St.G.44 is a name used later in the war.

Roel
Just about every book and program I've seen also says that the Tiger II was named King Tiger or something equivilant - that doesn't make it true either. What also prevents a WWI weapon from being an assault rifle?
The BAR may be arguable as an assault rifle because of its weight, but other than that I see no problem with it designated as such.

In the end, however, the BAR is designated an automatic rifle and the M.P.44 is a submachine gun by designation, so the discussion is as such irrelevant.

KBO
If you look into it, you'll see that the AF-16 was actually rechambered to take the Japanese 6.5 mm. round.

By the way, take a look at the RPD-44 and SKS-45 as well.

Notmi
I couldn't agree more!

-------------------------

Information about the firing mechanism of the M.P.44 and AK-47 from "Small arms of the World"

 

Intermediate!!!!! the 6.5x50mm round will propelle a 123gr round at 3300fps, i wouldnt call that intermediate...its not as powerfull as most atleat 7.62-7.92mm caliber rounds but, it certainly isnt in the medium league with the 7.62x39 and 7.92x33mm rounds....

Also the M-14 isnt an assault rifle, its an Automatic rifle, an thats two completely different things. Same goes for the BAR, wich stands for Browning Automatic Rifle btw... If you can call the AF-16 a assault then you can call an SVT40 and an M-14 an assault rifle too, but they aint..

And no looks have absolutely nothing to do with it, i just used some look-alike examples with the same caracteristics thats all..

Regards, KBO

 

Christian the "Degtarev" was not an Assault rifle, it was an light Machine gun wich used belts like the M60.... :roll:

And the SKS Simonov wasnt an assault rifle either, it was an semi automatic rifle...


KBO

 

That 3300fps with 123gr is hot, its really hot. Even 6.5mm Remington Magnum can't do that (atleast with most factory loadings). I found that normal military loading was 139gr and 2500fps from 32" barrel. Add there shorter barrel and automatic operation from Fedorova Avtomat and you get somewhat slower MV.

And M-14, in some extend it could be considered as an assault rifle. USA just didn't got it right from the first try.

 

"That 123gr round with 3300fps" is surplus ammo for the Arasika and AF-16, and its defidently more powerfull than the 7.62x39mm round...

Here's a good site on it: http://www.surplusrifle.com/loadinfo/list.asp

KBO

 

Yes, I checked that page while searching info for my last post. But where did you find that 3300fps surplus ammo?

 

I made an error it was an 120gr bullet with an 3000fps and it was the most powerfull 6.5mm japanees rifle round back in ww1. It was loaded with 47gr of powder, and it was ment to be fired by the Arasika rifle.

Anyway lets compare the 7.62x39mm with the 6.5x50mm:

Normal 6.5x50mm round: MV:2500fps 139gr

Normal 7.62x39mm round: MV:2400fps 123gr

As you can see the 6.5x50mm round is the more powerfull one..

KBO

 

True. Never denied that. Still, its only 2600 J vs 2100 J. Who says it has to be less powerfull than 7.62x39mm in order to be "proper" assault rifle caliber?