AK-47 and MP44?

All these things are relative...the recoil impulse generated by the 6.6x50SR cartridge is actually the same as that for the 7x43 designed for the British EM-2 postwar assault rifle, and that proved quite controllable in auto fire. However, this sort of power is definitely at the top end of the range for controllable use in automatic rifles.

The recoil experienced by the shooter, while predominantly a product of cartridge power and gun weight (the StG.44 was easier to shoot than the AK-47, because the gun weighed so much!), is also affected by other factors. The stock angle for one - the traditional 'dropped stock' doesn't work so well, as the recoil tends to make the gun rotate upwards, whereas with a straight stock (like the M16 and all bullpups) the push is directly back into the shoulder. The gun mechanism also makes a difference, and so do some more subtle points like the shape of the stock and handgrips.

These figures for 'ideal' cartridges are from my article on Assault Rifles and their Ammunition, on my website. The largest of them is about at the top end for controllable auto fire from a light rifle:

7mm/.276": bullet weight 8.4g (130 grains) at 770 m/s (2,525 fps) = 2,500j

6.85mm/.270": bullet weight 7.9g (122 grains) at 784 m/s (2,570 fps) = 2,430j

6.5mm/.258": bullet weight 6.9g (106 grains) at 820 m/s (2,690 fps) = 2,330j

6.35mm/.25": bullet weight 6.5g (100 grains) at 834 m/s (2,736 fps) = 2,260j

6mm/.24": bullet weight 5.9g (91 grains) at 854 m/s (2,800 fps) = 2,150j


Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

 

The weight of the bullet fired also has something to say when it comes to recoil..

The standard bullet for the 6.5x50mm weighes 139gr and is propelled at 2500fps, wich gives it an kenetic energy of about 2600j, and i wouldnt call this a round that is really suited for autofire.... plus the fact that the barrell on the AF-16 is very short and that also adds to the recoil, but that doesnt mean the weapon is short as it is actually as long as an rifle, and that also limits it in how portable it is. And then there's as you mensioned the "Dropped stock" wich doesnt help to weaken the recoil much either, but only strengthens it...

I would call the AF-16 the first ever automatic rifle, but i would never call it an assault rifle.

Regards, KBO

 

What are termed "classic assault weapon cartridges" are losers.

They are underpowered and cannot hold a candle to a good rifleman with an old 30.06 cartridge. Give a good rifleman a Remmington 700ADL 30.06 with a good scope and your popular "assault gun" will never get in range.

For a good read on this subject, see: "Guerilla Warefare" by Che Guevara ISBN 0-8032-2116-9 or ISBN 0-8032-7010-0

:smok:

 

Greg what does an atleat fullpower rifle have to do with assault rifles ????

Btw Greg if i was to choose a fullpowered rifle, it would deffidently be a K98k with some high performance 7.92x57mm surplus rounds, OH YEAH 8) it makes the 30.06 look silly if compared in power 8)

Best regards, KBO

 

Assuming you can find a 'good rifleman' in the heat of battle - they seem to be few and far between. In the early 1950s the US Army sponsored some research into the use of rifles in WW2 and Korea. The results are summarised in the new book I've written with Max Popenker, 'Assault Rifle: the Development of the Modern Military Rifle and its Ammunition' as follows:

"Hitchman's report was forthright in presenting its findings, much to the discomfiture of many staff in the Ordnance Department. Examination of World War 2 combat records, and of new data emerging from Korea (over 600 soldiers were interviewed), showed that the average distance for aimed bullet hits was in the region of 75-100 yards (70-90 metres) with 80% of effective rifle and LMG fire being reported at ranges of less than 200 yards and 90% at less than 300 yards (275 metres). Hits at ranges longer than this were very infrequent, as even good marksmen found that terrain and visibility severely hindered their effectiveness; it was estimated that at 300 m there was only a ten percent chance of seeing a man-sized target under most terrain conditions."

The German Army had the perfectly good K98k bolt-action rifle in WW2, but were desperate to get hold of the StG.44 assault rifles, as they were simply much better tools for combat. Since then, every other major army has moved to intermediate calibre assault rifles as their primary arm. Not exactly 'losers'.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

 

And the debate wages on and on...., is the Panther a copy of the T-34, the Ak-47 a copy of the MP-44, the Toyota a copy of the..... the only ones who knew the "truth" are the designers themselves. Even then, what they said might not be the truth. I think the Russians and Germans would have been too proud to admit that they "copy" others' designs.

 

Well how i see it, the Panther could just as well have been a copy of the Sherman as of the T-34, since they all have sloping frontal armor, and thats the only thing the Panther had that the others had, and thereby also the only thing they can be compared with.

KBO

 

Thank you, my points exactly.

 

AK owes very little to MP/StG - check out The AK-47 story by E.C. Ezell. Puts that myth to rest. But look at it this way - the AK uses 7.62M43 ammo - i.e. the ammo was accepted for service in '43.
Would the Russians accept an ammunition without a weapon being on the drawing boards, or would they design an ammunition and wait to get captured examples of a German gun a year later??
Machine Pistol = pistol ammunition at automatic rates
Battle Rifle = full calibre ammunition
Assault Rifle = intermediate ammunition at automatic rates
Oli

 

It appears that the Russians were indeed influenced by German ammunition developments - but maybe not by the actual 7.92x33 (which only got into limited service in late 1942) but by prewar experiments.

The Russian M1943 7.62x39 only entered service in a gun much later: the Simonov SKS semi-auto was the first to see service in experimental form in 1945, and the AK-47 wasn't selected until 1947 (it entered service in 1949).

The AK-47 certainly wasn't a copy of the StG 44 but it's naive to believe the Russian protestations that it wasn't influenced by it. The Russians had tens of thousands of StG 44s on hand before Kalashnikov began designing the AK-47. Obviously, the various design teamns competing for the Russian contract would have examined the StG 44 very carefully - not to copy it, but to learn from it and try to improve on it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

Yaeh sorry Tony. Badly argued
I was trying to point out that the ammo was developed pre-capture of German weapons so the Russians MUST have looking at similar applications before they got hold of the German equivalent.
Influenced? Almost guaranteed. But what weapons (or anything else) aren't influenced to a greater or lesser extent by what has gone before, especially if it was reasonably succesful? There'a constant undercurrent of Soviet = Bad/ Poor quality and German = Good/ Excellent quality, not helped by the fact that most of what the west knew about Russia post war was based largely on captured (ex_ Nazi documents and personnel - don't tell me there was a lingering influence.
Claims of "copy" in these cases normally mean "blatant rip-off". Compare Concorde and Tu-144. I mean, it's harder to reverse engineer something than develop it yourself, especially when you don't have one in hand.
Oli

 

Just to throw a spanner in the works has no one mentioned the MKB42(H) which the MP43/44/STG was based on??? i havent read through yet but i dident see it mentioned
allthough they may have been rear in the field he could have seen one of these and i have seen an AK47 and it had quite alot simlar and with the STG44 and PPS43 and beleve he did copy the MKB42/STG44 but being russian wont admit it
the internal design may be different but they both use intermidiate cartridge and gas operated from a closed breech he just added his own touch

 

Nonsense.

Conjecture.

Following that logic, the MP 44 was a copy of the AF-16, and then we're back in Russia again.

 

what ever you say i know what i saw

Conjecture.[/quote]
there isent as you never mentioned the MKB42 before and probably forgot its existence but you cant deny it

Following that logic, the MP 44 was a copy of the AF-16, and then we're back in Russia again.[/quote]
so the AF-16 uses a rifle round with a smaller charge!?!?!? or a full rifle caliber?? you said about it before and was proved wrong it uses a full rifle caliber not an intermediate caliber which the germans invented for the perpose and would hate to fire it on full auto the STG was designed for the perpose of giveing the accuracy of a rifle with the covering fire of a machine gun with reasonable accuracy
also it was a rifle heavy and bulky the STG was light slim and with a pistol grip
they have nothing in common but the AK does its plain to see and you are fighting a loseing battle

 

I guess the M1 Garand and the Lee Enfield rifles are pretty much the same as well, then? Look again.

You specifically stated that you believe that Kalashnikov copied the MKb 42 and MP 44, but just won't admit it. You didn't present any evidence. Therefore, your statement is conjecture by definition and thus without merit, and is from an academic standpoint non-existent.

The ammunition it used was already of a size which wouldn't produce too strong a recoil. Choosing an existing round which suits the purpose, when available, seems superior to designing a new round. Besides, the Germans originally wanted to make a new, smaller round, but used the 7.92 mm. for ease of production.

The MP 44 also used a full rifle caliber, i.e. 7.92 mm.

Define 'it'.

As mentioned above, the Germans used a 7.92 mm. for the MP 44.

Why?

With an effective range of about 300 metres, this objective would appear to have failed.

Or sub-machine gun.

It wasn't a rifle. It is also more elegant that other early assault rifle attempts, such as the Browning Automatic Rifle.

The AF-16 doesn't have a pistol grip, but it does have a forward grip.

So?

Where do they have more in common than so many other assault rifles?

Nonsense.

Oh, by the way - what do you have against proper use of capital letters, commas, periods, question marks and exclamation marks?

 

For a start i have Dyslecia so i dont have a problrm with them in anyway

one is a gas operated rifle the other is a bolt action needing a manual operation to reload and cock it

i wont admit what?? i have given evidence
take for instance the panzerschreck they copied the american bazoka but they dont look alike but they use the same system the Geman engineers just saw ways to improve the design a bit like the STG44 and the AK dont you admit??
ohh and the panzerfaust and the RPG!! you going to tell me the ruskies dident copy them either!?

so they used an old round that was weak but was STILL a rifle cartradge any round could be classed the same if they just dident fill them up with enough powder

the AF-16 you was proven wrong

bacause it being such an early design would be very shaky and prone to failure

let me know you anserws and i will let you know but i think the consensous is againt you

 

Dyslexia manifests itself by being unable to properly read and/or write words, not by grammatical errors such as lacking capitalisation and excessive or lacking use of periods, question marks, etc.

My point exactly - they are different not only in appearance, but also in function.

You wrote that Kalashnikov wouldn't admit that he copied the MP 44, for which you presented no evidence.

Meaning? The MP44 and AK-47 are widely different in internal mechanism, and are clearly externally different as well.

I'm not sure - are you trying to say that the German engineers developed the AK-47 based on the MP 44?

Straw man argument. I never made such statement. Logical fallacies degenerates discussions.

So because the Russians went for the financially and technologically most beneficial choice, the AF-16 isn't as assault rifle?

Redefine. Elaborate.

Evidence?

Make up your mind. Did they have the same accuracy as a rifle or not? There is also a distinct difference between 300 and 500 metres.

A well-placed 9 mm. round will stop a soldier just fine as well. 'Stopping power' is greatly overrated. Basic physics: a conventional projectile will have a lower impact energy against the item it hits than the recoil had on the person who fired it.

Since I haven't said it, I haven't said it. That should be fairly logical.

You haven't defined 'assault rifle', so that' s difficult to decide.

How come?

At what point is a weapon 'light and slim'?

Because the AF-16 and the MP 44 doesn't have anything in common (at least as per your statement), the AF-16 isn't an assault rifle. Does this mean that the XM29 and XM8 aren't assault rifles either?

You have provided no evidence that this was the case.

As the only two weapons in the world, apparently?

Hmmm... One-man consensus. Furthermore, factual discussions can't be settled through vote.

 

that summes it up nicely for me
they arnt "widely" different the gas piston looks remarkably simlar aswell as the free floating bolt it has a hammer remakably simlar to an STG44 hammer system
as for the outside they both have pistol grips, curved mags, the gas port looks so very simlar raised frount sight, the only maijor difference being the wood hand gaurd and the fact the top comes down
but the panzerschreck used a dynamo and the american M1 used a battery a different aiming system and had a pistol grip with a large trigger and wooden supports while the schreck used metal for the supports and had a big shield with n foward handle and so looked largely simlar but they both used the hollow charge projectile which was new interms of a rocket launched weapon
so tell me that these 2 items largely different weapons but being addmitted it was copied the other denying it are any different??
also have you also forgotten the fat that Kalashnikov was liveing under comunist rule which was feared by all under itif he said he copied the design he would probably be in an unmarked grave now

ALSO you keep asking me for my evidence but you havent provided any yourself :kill:

 

Perhaps the trigger looks the same as well? Try looking at the entire internal mechanism.

M16, M4, Steyr AUG, SIG 550, to name a few other

SIG 500, M16, Steyr AUG, to name a few other

They both have one, at least

Plus, of course, that the MP 44 is accessed from below and the AK-47 from above, that the stock of the MP 44 is detachable, that the AK-47 has a bayonet and that the cleaning rod is mounted on different sides of the barrel. Plus, of course, that they function is different ways.

You're the one who brought the R Pz B 54 and the 2.36 inch Rocket Launcher, M1A1, into this. You are pursuing a straw man argument you have previously established.

Logical fallacy: Circumstantial ad Hominem, Burden of proof.

You can't prove a negative. You keep asserting a claim or correlation. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you.

This whole discussion is a fairly obvious case of Post Hoc logic.

 

Are you really that stupid!?!?! you keep saying the STG44 and AK47 are copleately different in look and mecanisum so cannot be copied but i give you an example of a design that was copied and has been admitted and you tell me its irelevent!!! you dont know what you are talking about you just use big words to make you look all important but the obveous facts are there

i have and it looks largely simlar except only useing one spring to operate the hammer and trigger and the sear is built onto the trigger its an "improved" Design cant you see that??

irelevent they are built after the AK47 and are nothing to do with this argument they were built a few years later we arnt talking about every other assult rifle

as above irelevent

ohh so you do know something

they are all "cosmetic" differences the STG dosent have a cleaning rod but the MKB42 did have a bayonett lug so maybe he copied the MKB42 then?

?? that means??

Ohh you can use big words good for you i may not have any university degree but i know alot more about guns than most after working with a firearms dealer a few years and being for only 19 seem to be out witting you :lol:

why should the burdon of proof be on me!? you are also the one trying to fight that it wasent copied you prove it wasent copied go on i want to know

Again with the big words do you want a medal for the use of big words from you teacher?