Album

Just uploaded some pics from my collection. It's not very big since I ran out of money needed to buy the medals and badges I wanted. I always wanted to get an Anti-Partisan War badge, but that turned out to be a bridge too far, pardon the reference. Plus I think they were heavily copied. This is a great forum and thanks to all those who have helped me.
Dan

 

Hello Dan,

I hate to say it but I see some items that concern me. When you have the time I would be more than willing to help you out if you provided reverse photos of all of your navy badges. I have some concerns about your shields also...I have a question about the Demjansk...is it magnetic? (the shield...not the back plate)

 

Hi Dan, wheres the photos of your collection? Do you have your own website or soemthing? You have to excuse my ignorance on these things. Anyway, I might be able to add a bit to what RR is saying.

Best regards--C.

PS, what shields do you have?

I have an Army Krim, an Army Narvik and a Navy Narvik.

 

He said that he posted an album....go to his user page. It should be interesting to see what some folks have to say about some of these pieces.

 

Posted photos of the back of the navy badges. The Demjansk shield is not magnetic.

 

Thanks for posting the photos. I am afraid that your Demjansk shield is a fake then...this shield is known as the 'Serif J' fake. You can identify it by the 'serif J' and the moving prop on the airplane. They did make this style of shield but it is only found in steel...zinc shields with these characteristics are 100% reproduction.

 

It kills me to have to tell you this but I see some major issues here. I will not just tell you something is fake and leave it at that...I will give you some detailed information.

1) High Seas Fleet: This looks a lot like a 'Cave Creek' special to me. You can clearly see that it is cast...very soft in detail. The design that they used was the 'ghost bridge window' or '5 bridge window' on the bridge. What happened is that the fakers used an original that had a weak strike on the 5th bridge window...the die that was created to make the castings had this feature and subsequently the fakes all have this 'ghost window'. There is no flashing around the tower around the top of the badge...and the rest of the features on the obverse are very soft and lack the detail of a known original. The reverse is close but no cigar...as these 'Cave Creek' pieces are. The hinge, hinge pin and pin are close but not correct. They used a simple 'coke bottle' pin that is flat and straight...sometimes they will try and give it a little 'tip' on the end but when you compare it to an original it isn't even close. The Schwerin mark is incorrect and soft...a trademark of being cast.

A known late Tombak Schwerin HSF badge

 

2) Schwerin Blockade Runner:

This was an easy spot just from the front...count the port windows....they should be from top to bottom; 9,8,7,6....yours is 9,8,6,6...this is a dead giveaway. The reverse is not correct either for the reasons that I outlined in the HSF thread. This piece is soft and cast...the lack of detail is obvious when compared to an original.

 

3) Schwerin Auxillary Cruisers badge:

Again, this badge gives the appearance of being zinc but you can tell it is made from an alloy. The reverse is the dead give away here as the hinge, pin and catch are all wrong for a Schwerin example. The rivet is wrong, the catch is wrong.

Schwerin largely used the same hinge, hinge pin, pin and catch on nearly all of their badges...buntmetal to zinc...when they changed on one badge they changed on all of them. Schwerin was a conglomerate just like the A.G.M.u.K. manufactures.

4) Schwerin 2nd Pattern S-Boat badge:

This badge was only produced in Zinc...all Schwerin Zinc badges had round catch plates for their catches. This piece appears to be cast out of some sort of alloy. The death blow for this one is the fact that it is made of alloy...not to mention the lack of round catch plate.

5) Marine Artillerie badge:

Sohni, Heubach & Co did not to my knowledge manufacture the Marine Artillerie badge.

6) Friedrich Orth Destroyer badge:

This looks like the common fake of this badge that is found with numerous makers on the reverse. I can not tell if this badge is supposed to be zinc or buntmetal but Orth never made navy badges in buntmetal...only zinc. Orth never used the horizontal pin and catch set up...also their pins were round with a wire 'c' catch. The hinge set up for Orth is much different with a hinge plate included.

7) Unmarked Minesweeper:

This is also a cast badge...you can tell from the color of the alloy on the reverse. This looks to me like the 'Staegemeir' fake that is found sometimes with a small "Lm" makers mark right above the catch.

8) Frank & Reif U-Boat badge:

Frank & Reif never manufactured the U-Boat badge.

 

Dan,

Did you get all of these from the same person? Almost all of these are old time fakes...especially the U-Boat badge.

Rich

 

Thanks Rich, ill do so ;-))

Best-C.

 

Done. I concurr, many bad items and the worst violater I spotted was indeed the High Seas Fleet Badge. I dont have computer time left to go into other details, such as the Shields and such but will try to later.

 

I'd be very curious to hear what you have to say about the other items Carl...I'll leave the rest of the ID'ing to you....you sound like you really know what you are doing.

 

Hi Rich, I dont know a whole heck of alit on IDing wrong things but will be glkad to try to do so soon as I have more time ;-)) The High Seas Fleet badge was a given. I had not known that about the Blockage Breaker badge-Porthole count. See what I mean? ;-))

 

I'm curious to hear from Dan about these pieces...like where and when did he acquire them.

I know that it is never a pleasant experience to find out that your prized collection has bad pieces in it...but the only way to learn so that you do not make the same mistakes down the road is to share and ask questions.

Rich

 

Thanks for taking the time to confirm these pieces and writing why. I had bought them 20+ years ago when all I had was some small book called "detecting the fakes". No internet to post pics on or forums to dicuss how many port holes one piece has or a propeller isn't straight on another. No data bases on manufactures. If I saw a naval piece made by Schwerin and the detail looked good, I bought it. And I think the old man who sold them to me his knowledge was limited also. He told me after I'd buy something that if I didn't think it was right to bring it back and he'd give me my money back, no questions. Had I known to what extent this stuff was reproduced I never would have bought anything in the first place.
If you want to tell me the other stuff is fake, save some time and write what it is with the word fake beside it. Or better yet let me know what you think might be real.
Oh well, just another lesson in life.
Dan

 

Dan,

Had I known that I would strike a nerve with you I would have saved my time when I wrote what I wrote. I see far too many people simply say that something is 'fake' and they never provide any information why they feel this way...if this is what you are looking for on some of your other items then I am the wrong guy. I see some items that look good in your collection...but it would take reverse shots of everything in order to do so...it's up to you if you decide you want to know.

The reason that I asked you more than once about when you purchased these items is because they are old fakes and it would make sense that you purchased them when you did. I do not believe that the person that sold them to you did so knowingly...the information that was available back then is a drop of water in a bucket compared to what is available to one now. Had you purchased these items in the last 5 years I would feel different about the dealer as these pieces are known in the community.

Your comment about never starting had you known about fakes can be used when one is collecting anything...it shouldn't just be viewed in TR collecting...try collecting Coca Cola memorabilia....they fake things just as much as they do TR items.

All the best,
Rich

 

Hi Dan, I got my first "taste" of looking for books and such about fakes with Lumsdens useless book. At that time, I was juuuust starting to get serious about collecting and I had maybe 5-6 pieces by that time. Well, as was drummed into me by the Gent who I lable as my mentor into TR collecting-Mr Don Gillis, it was drummed into me to buy as many books as I can with things of my areas of interest to collect, most of the books did help out but some didnt do anything for me-just like Detecting the Fakes. Oh DTF is good when it comes to comparing pieces with low-end faked-meaning that Lumsden used some of the lousiest examples of fake items to compare good stuff with.

That said, I threw the book to the wind-I cant remember whom I gave it away to? but I go rid of it. Im not in the financial league as many collectors are so I had to make do with what I learned and what I could afford to buy to use as references.

That also said, dont let anyone get you down on collecting, had I let that happen to me? I would have given up collecting 12-14 years ago and wouldnt have many of the special items I have today.

Rich was only trying to help as he is with me on some stuff said here. One thing I will always proclaim, is that im no expert in anything except my own collection. The one item I knowingly ever bought that I knew was bad-was a silver close combat clasp-and I did so to use as a reference on hand-in case I was to find a real one I could afford to have. Well, as it turned out, the fake silver CCC I had broke years before I actually got one-about 8 years I thinK? Im also a proud "papa" of a minty Bronze one too.

Anyway, when I get more time? I will be glad to take Rich's challenge and express what little I actually do know-and without the use of a reference library as well as a reliable computer.

Best regards-Carl.

 

Once again.....the messenger gets shot. How did I become the bad guy here? I thought that I was doing this poster a service by providing information that I knew nobody else on this forum would probably know....the reply that I received makes me wonder if it is worth it anymore...

 

Hi rich, you aint the bad guy. I am :lol:

Seriouly, im learning from you as many here even if you point out that im mistaken on things-whicch has happened at least once before and probably a thousand times more before the end comes ;-))

Take care--c.

PS, let me make a Case-in-Point: About 10 years ago when waf was still an infant site, I had a few guys on there who thought they were the "Gurus" of rank insignia collecting and called my Generals Collartabs fake--ONLY based on the fact that they had supposedly never seen the gold celleon without a small gap in the center showing the red beneath. Well, if people will kindly look closely at photos there are tons in books out there that show Generals wearing the Collartabs that are exactly like mine. I had it on good authority on that sit efrom at least two big cloth rank insignia collectors that they were good--which I knew to be because I was at Don Gillis's house the day he had two large wooden crates delivered to his home-which was the entire estate from the Generals family. As there were a few spare sets of collartabs in this estate--Don kindly let me get a minty unused set from him-for an affordable price. I do NOT know the name of this General so nobody think of asking? I never learned the mans name or if I did? I have forgotten it.

Anyway, my Generals collartabs are the real deal. I had found it quite "funny" that after two of the """""""experts"""""" there had publicly said my tabs were bad-send me several emails and PMs about offering to buy them from me. The top offer for what were supposedly "repo" tabs, was $100. Needless to say, I never sold and never have intended on selling them. I now have an very-fine to near mint pair of Generalmajors boards to go with them.

One of those so-called """"""experts"""""""was supposedly an expert on ribbonbars too. Well, that expert wasproven wrong on the tabs and on two ribbon bars I had and still have for that matter. What he was actually correct on was that one of my 8 place ribbonbars was a put together piece which i had not known but, the devices on that ribbon bar were the real deal.