wow ..thats got to be an aviation first...i wonder if the other guy in the aggressor plane survived as well
I saw a documentary recently where they were discussing the F-15 and the F-22 and they stated that in 5 versus 1 or 8 versus 2 engagements the F-22 has never lost to the F-15. One pilot stated that the biggest danger for the F-22 pilot was getting bored because it was too easy. It's not about ACM skills because the F-15 pilots were never able to acquire the F-22 and the first indication of their presence was when they called "Fox 2" and took the shot to down them. It was pretty impressive considering the F-15 has an excellent radar.
I read elsewhere that the F-15 pilots were given no AWACS or ground radar support whatsoever during these exercises, whereas in a real situation the USAF wouldn't dream of leaving the airstrip without ECM and AWACS coverage... This obviously put the F-15's in a situation they would not have otherwise found themselves in, and the exercise itself was designed to let the F-22's win (possibly to justify to the brass the exhorbitant cost!) The result might not have in fact been so great if the F-15's had overlapping radar to defeat stealth I don't suppose you know what altitute and speed the exercises were conducted at? It might just be a that the real advantage the F-22 possesses is its sheer kinematic superiority over the F-15... A rule of thumb in aircraft seems to be that better kinematics = superiority, the ability to supercruise might very well be a far greater advantage than stealth, which might turn out to be a bit of a gimmick... Either way i'm sure the public would much rather hear about 'stealth' than aeronautical kinematics
I don't know the specifics beyond what the pilots said on the Military Channel (or History Channel ) documentary. It seems to me that since the F-22s would also normally have the benefits of AWACS and neither had AWACS for this exercise then they would be on equal footing. IMO the inabilty of the F-15 radar to detect the F-22s was far more important than any ACM adavantage due to superior maneuvering ability or speed advantage. If yo don't know they are there then dogfighting ability isn't very helpful it seems to me. Are you certain that the AWACS would have been able to track the F-22s? I'm not so sure.
Smeghead was talking about kinematic superiority - not dogfighting. Since F-22 has supercruise then the missile's F-pole will be considerably higher - conferring a longer range and a larger no-escape zone. F-15 would lag due to having to accelerate with afterburner (reducing overall range and persistence) to get equivalent launch parameters.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. However I think my point remains the same. Neither the kinematic superiority nor the ACM ability will be as decisive as the fact that you won't visualize the F-22 and won't know they are there until you get a missile up your tailpipe.
Third party illuminators like AWACS and ground-based-radar confer a massive advantage when it comes to tracking targets; only makes sense when you consider the 360 degrees of coverage and the large amount of circutry you can fit into an E-3 frame, or on the ground... Plus they have passive radar capabilities which is apparently far more effective at detecting stealth as it detect changes in armospheric radiation, as opposed to bouncing a sigal off a target... Some modern onboard radars, like on the Dassault Rafale, are even purportedly able to make purely passive interceptions, (a very big thing because passive radar usually is not sufficiently accurate to guide missiles). One could theoretically lock on to a stealth aircrafts' heat signature and radar, or even the suns reflections off it Such advancements is part of the reason why the F-35 is being questioned over here, because if techniques to detect stealth are already available we are left with a stealthy plane, but a kinematic 'dud'. The F-22 on the other hand is possibly the most kinematically impressive plane in existance. If it really can supercruise at Mach 1.7 (with a full loadout?) you can imagine it will be able to fly circles around an F-15 which AFAIK can't do much more than Mach 1 with a full loadout. I wouldn't be suprised if the real advantage of the F-22 is energy, not stealth... Though it ceratinly helps against targets with no radar support whatsoever So needless to say, some AWACS support would have give the F-15 pilots a lot more than it would give the F-22 pilot... Granted, the F-22 (if it had AWACS) would be able to engage without switching on his radar and further improving steath capability, but the APG-77 radar is supposed to have LPI capability regardless... confidential stuff That raises another question, did the F-22's on this exercise have AWACS coverage where the F-15's did not? That would be VERY unfair
At the moment they are playing unfairly with regard to F-22's capabilities:- The last report I read (Air International a month or two back) gave a "validated" 140-0 (F-22 - F-15) kill ratio from an exercise. But failed to state that the exercise was set up with a set number of each and flown multiple times, e.g. 4 vs, 4 or 6 vs. 6 - never 140 vs. 1. (or even 3 or 4 to one) Bearing in mind the most recent cost I've seen for F-22 (again Air International, the September issue for this year) at 6.25+ billion ( honest! ) for 60 how likely is that it would ever be an equal number scenario? With F-22's combat persistence being only fairly good (8 AAMs) if they go up against 10 or more targets then it's lost...
Oli: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe theres also a Vulcan cannon for "clean-up." I'm reminded of the F-14 Tomcat and it's air-superiority role. I don't believe they expect a pair of F-22 Raptors to take-out the entire airforce of an aggressor-nation in one mission. Of course any pilot that scores 8 kills with as many missiles might want to allow for enough time and fuel to perform all those "victory-rolls" when they get back to base and celebrate. Tim
Yup certainly - but do you think that one F-22 could survive long in a 3 or 4 to one dogfight? Especially if the "bad guys" knew their tactics? Yeah, agreed but spouting 140-0 statistics is deliberately misleading. And get grounded for showing off or going against regs
