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American Invasion

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by Hawkerace, May 30, 2007.

  1. PanzerVI

    PanzerVI Member

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    fine, someone else post their idea, obviously mine is a failure:(
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Dont get discouraged mate, as you can see, such scenerios dont sit too well with the rest of us. :D ;)
     
  3. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    See your thinking too far ahead of your logistics and manpower and snow.

    No, where someone really needs to start this sort of thing is a German invasion of the Scilly Isles. No my friends in States...they do exist...go to Plymouth or Portsmouth, carry on to the Right, or left if your invading from France and your German.

    Get youself control of the air round there...get your barges in overnight...get a firm lodgement. Brits and Yanks wake up next morning to the surprise that German navy, army and airforce have done the impossible....captured the Scilly Isles...its not much, but its a stepping stone. Now hold it. Then think, what the hell this is costing us to take and hold this little green god for saken island in the middle of no where...Then though...your closer to states...or you could expand into Britain. No that dont work...I dont see how that helps knock the Russians out.
    But its a start..shows intent...shows how flaming difficult it was just to get a few tin helmets onto small enemy island in contested area where you dont have air superiority, naval supremacy and someone actually doesnt want you to have the damn place.

    Its a Silly idea but it is the Scilly Isles. No troops of any great strengh, but lots of seagulls.

    From there, bobs your uncle and the USA is only a few thousand miles of contested air space and sea space to the left. On arrival check in at customs...because I'm damn sure they will see you coming and will be waiting on beaches with customs decleration forms. But watch out for them Yankies behind the customs guys....thats tanks behind them..and big howitzers...and them planes they all have stars on em. The locals dont seem too friendly either...Perhaps best bet is to stay on Scilly Isles.
     
  4. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Come on, lay off the feller. Even if you look at the statement, he didn't say it was possible, he said for it to be possible certain things would have to happen. If I were to say 'for you to float through the air without the aid of a machine gravity would have to cease' I wouldn't be saying it was possible, simply that for it to be possible something would have to happen.

    No point slating a newbie for expressing a totally fair opinion, he just listed several things that would be required for an invasion of the US to succeed. No need to suggest how they can happen, he didn't even suggest they were possible, simply listed a series of reasons the invasion couldn't take place.
     
  5. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I agree with Stefan.
     
  6. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I too agree with Stefan, mayhaps we do get a bit carried away with shooting "ideas" down, but then again isn't that what "what if" is for? Put the idea out there and see how many holes it has in it when it hits the ground?

    No animosity or anything, just a "disection" of the concept to expose the reason it "wasn't" done at the time historically. If we (fellow Rogues) cannot find fault with the idea we should "pitch in" and fill out the rest of the scene. All in the spirit of "what if".
     
  7. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    I as well agree. Panzer presented the criteria necessary for success. The post was valid. Let us be more cordial if you please and save the sarcasm for older members.
     
  8. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Member

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    I keep running across a quote that I think must either foster this idea of a US invasion or possibly is a result of this kind of debate. Before I post it I would like to clarify that this is an unsourced, hence unsubstantiated quote, attibuted to Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto:
    Now if anybody can quote a source for this I'll accept that, but I seriously doubt its validity. However, it's all over the internet, repeated over and over again like fact. I ran across this "quote" while I was searching for what I thought I remembered was attributed to the Soviets, but I think I might have been crossing a neuron there with this one.

    It certainly is a handy line in the gun debate (I still might use it there;)), but I think it's urban legend. Any thoughts?
     
  9. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    I concur with Stefan, Slip, brndirt and PzJgr as well. He was just "whatiffin." Hopefully he has learned from this thread what it takes to support an argument offered up and and how to defend it as well. No need to pound a rookie into the ground, or anyone for that matter.
     
  10. cross of iron

    cross of iron Member

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    Here is a scenario:

    1939
    -A grand war plan is drafted
    1940
    -Invasion of Britain commences immediately after the fall of France with the primary objective of capturing or neutralizing the Royal Navy.
    -Victory on the British Isles for the Germans. A reasonable part of the Royal Navy is captured intact.
    -Germany takes over the entire French navy.
    -The USSR joins the Axis.(Weinberg, Gerhard L. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, pg. 199-201)
    1941
    -Germany doesn't invade the USSR.
    -All industrial resources are devoted to the Luftwaffe and the Navy.
    -Japan attacks Pearl Harbor.
    -Japan makes peace with China.
    -Germany declares war on America.
    -The USSR maintains neutrality while supplies Germany and Japan with resources.
     
  11. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

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    Americans would probably make the best partisans ever, possibly better than the eastern European ones. But still, without heavy material, like all partisans they would be vulnerable.
     
  12. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Ok, Stefans right....but its human nature to have fun...No one actually lynched the guy.
    I hearby apologise for my Scilly isles adventure, but I still think its worth a try.
    Just pointing out if you cant do Britian what makes you think you can do our bigger cousin?

    Surely even what ifs have to have a premise?
     
  13. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Problem with a statement like that Wolfy, is your always going to get someone from another nation that will jump up and say, no WE would probably make the best parisans ever, lets just be thankfull we didnt or dont have to.

    Admirations in abundance to the nations that had to live through it though. And the ones that did still stand up.

    Oh, and your wrong, its obvious we would have been the best, becuase we had a better sense of humour. Make em laugh...fall off chairs..then you've got em.
     
  14. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    What is the point of this scenario?

    Is it a list of events that must occur before an Axis invasion of the US becomes feasible? If so, I'm afraid it is incomplete.

    Furthermore, At least one of the events, the German invasion of Britain and capture of the Royal Navy is so unlikely as to relegate it to the realm of fantasy. Germany, even assuming a successful invasion of Britain (which is itself, dubious), has no way of capturing the RN as it has extremely few naval assets of it's own, even assuming it has somehow managed to accomplish the feat of "taking over" the French Navy.

    Another item on this list, devoting all Germany's industrial resources to the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, is so unlikely, and so inadequate as to be immediately suspect. Unlikely, because Germany still needs a very large and very powerful Army, not only to carry out a putative invasion of North America, but also to garrison Britain, occupied Europe, and other territories, and to keep an eye on it's "ally", The Soviet Union.

    Secondly, such an action still wouldn't provide sufficient ships and planes to allow any chance of success in invading the US. Even in peacetime, Germany's industrial capacity was only a fraction of that of the US. Combined with The Soviet Union and Japan, Germany's war-making capability is still fatally inferior to that of the Western Hemisphere.

    At best, Germany might be able to successfully fight a defensive war against the US and it's allies, but an invasion with any hope of eventual success is still a fantasy.
     
  15. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    :rofl:
     
  16. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    I think the last statement is the key one though, if the USA were conquored then sure all those privately owned rifles would be a pain. The answer? Shut down all ammunition production in anything other than a military caliber, blow up all stockpiles and within a matter of weeks those privately held stashes will disappear. That'll leave the groups in question having to steal weapons and ammo from an occupying force, so in much the same situation as partisans elsewhere and without an outside power to support them, problem solved.
     
  17. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Member

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    Weeks? With an estimated 280 million firearms and untold amounts of ammunition, I think "weeks" is a bit of an overstatement. I think it would remain quite a pesky problem for quite a long time.

    I have no opinion whether Americans would be any better partisans than anyone else, but see no reason why they would be any worse. I agree that lack of heavy material would hamper the "home guard", but I think you would be surprised by what people actually have over here and what resources they would likely cull.
     
  18. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Another thing that would increase the effectiveness of an American civil resistance is the presence in private hands of massive amounts of tools and machinery on a scale not present anywhere in Europe.
    For the Europeans here a question: How many people do you know of personally where you live that have one or more of the following in their garage, shed, yard, etc:

    Metal machine tools like lathes, mills, welders, drill presses, etc in sufficent quantity to qualify as a small shop?

    Wood working shop tools like bandsaws, table saws, drill presses, planers, molders, etc that qualify as a small wood working shop?

    Construction machinery like backhoes, dump trucks, dump trailers, utility trailers, skid loaders (ie., a "bobcat"), or similar? Farm equipment of a similar nature would count here. I'd even go so far as small tractors and large rider mower type vehicles.

    ATV, off road motorcycles, 4 x 4 trucks and SUV, or other larger motor vehicles?

    Power boats?

    Reloading equipment for ammunition?

    The point here is that civilian America in 1940, and today, is very, very well equipped to produce military works like trenches, antitank ditches, bunkers, and such. I could easily foresee a few of my neighbors and I producing an improvised armored vehicle in such a situation almost overnight. I have an arc welder, air compressors etc in my garage. My neighbor has a MiG welder and sheet metal tools for auto restoration. A guy down the street has a cabinet making shop in his garage.
    I know several people that have full machine shops at their homes and are skilled machinists either professionally or as hobbists.
    On my property where I'm building a house I have a full size backhoe loader. The neighbor has a bobcat. Another has a small yard tractor. Alot of people have ATVs and off road vehicles as well in that area.

    If it came down to having to form a civilian resistance / militia the US would be one massive nightmare for an invader.
     
  19. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    "At the outbreak of war in Europe, the United States was ill-prepared to play a major military role. By early 1941, however, 34 new munitions factories were under construction across the country, and by 1944 U.S. factories led the world in armaments production. "


    Thought I would throw this out. Thats in 1941. Way before any fantasy invasion could happen. The amount of weapons and ammunition that was being produced and not being sent overseas alone would be staggering enough. The production would not stop and most factories would be out of harms way or the reach of an invading force.
     
  20. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    I would imagine you mean understatement. It depends on the nature of the resistance, having gone through 3000 rounds in a morning and that was just training it is simply a question of time before it ran out.

    Ahh, but assuming the US has been conquored then really destroying the last resistance would be the 'main effort' as it were, so that's where all the resources would be directed. To be honest I think it would also depend on how the conquored US was dealt with, I mean with a pro-Nazi president put in power, massive focus on the 'anti-communist' aspect of things, who knows, if the Germans could be persuaded to support a Nazi why not the US?
     

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