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Another German Pistol !

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by harolds, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Recently I acquired a "byf-41" Luger. It came with capture papers and was brought home by one Cpl. D. M. Simmons, 3554080, who was, in 1945, a member of the 305th Field Artillery Battalion. I suspect that the 305th was one of the many independent artillery BNs in the U.S. Army. However, this Luger is not the pistol referred to above. Also listed on the capture papers was another handgun that I'd never seen or even heard of before. That was a CZ Vis 38.

    The CZ-38 was a direct blowback pistol in 9mm kurz/380 auto. It had a 9 round magazine and had been slated to be issued to Czech forces. However, just before that was to happen, the Germans took over the country and the entire production run (about 100,000) was given to German police units and other security forces. After the war production was not resumed. So, add this one to the already extremely long list of German side arms in WW2.

    If any of you have any more info on this fire arm please feel free to pass it along.

    Harold
     
  2. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    I really like the Luger. Congrats on the nice acquisition. Post some pictures if you have a chance.

    On the "CZ Vis 38": the full title for the Model 38 was the CZ Vz.38. Its quite possible that "Vz" turned into "Vis" on the capture papers, especially if the typist was in a rush. I've never heard of a CZ Vis 38, and I can't find any reference of it in the book I have beside my keyboard right now.
     
  3. harolds

    harolds Member

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    You are right George P. It is "vz" which is an abbreviation for "vzor" which is probably Czech for "model". You can find it either on the "World Guns" website under "modern weapons" or there's a brief picture and description on Wikipedia.
     
  4. DocL

    DocL Member

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    Interesting-- the CZ38 was called the P39 in German Service. Just as an aside-- there was actually a VIS pistol, though this is not it. The VIS was the Polish 9mm pistol, which most American sources call the RADOM, which was taken into German service as the P645(p) (some sources say P35(p).).
     
  5. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Right Doc. I was firing off from memory(?) and probably confused the two. I have been aware of the Polish Viz for many years. The Viz is actually a really good pistol and if you can get a copy that was issued to Polish troops (not having waffenamt number or crude Soviet refinishing) I would urge you to buy it because they are rare! Which leads to the question: How many different handguns did the Germans issue during WW2?
     
  6. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Off the top of my head, I know of these:

    German Manufactured:
    • P08 Luger
    • P38 (and all variations)
    • Mauser M1910/M1914/M1934 'Pocket Pistols' (favoured by senior officers)
    • Sauer 1929/1930/38H-type pocket pistols (and all variations)
    • Mauser HSc (favioured by senior officers)
    • Walther PP
    • Walther PPK
    • C96 (Luftwaffe)
    Eastern European Manufacture:
    • POLAND: Radom VIS 35 (a large amount made under German supervision, quality continuously declined over the course of the war)
    • CZECHOSLOVAKIA: CZ 38 (aka 'P39)
    • CZECHOSLOVAKIA: CZ 27
    • HUNGARY: Femaru M1937 (popular with the Luftwaffe)
    Western/Northern European Manufacture:
    • BELGIUM: FN Model 1922
    • BELGIUM: FN Model 1910
    • BELGIUM: Browning Hi-Power
    • FRANCE: MAB Model D
    • FRANCE: SACM M1935A
    • NORWAY: Captured 1911s
    • SPAIN: Astra 400
    • SPAIN: Astra 600
    • SPAIN: Astra 900
    • SPAIN: Star Model B
    Feel free to add to the list. Of course, this does not include pistols captured in battle and used by the troops 'unofficially'. If this were to include those, you can add the Tokarev TT-33, and a large number of commercial handguns. I *believe* that all of those listed above received a proper Wehrmacht designation and saw relatively widespread use.

    EDIT: Updated to include Spain and France.
     
  7. harolds

    harolds Member

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    That's a darn good start. However, I would add the Spanish Astra model 400 and 600. As for the c96 I do believe that the Luftwaffe ordered several thousand of them and they had Luftwaffe acceptance marks and are rare. Perhaps some "red 9"s were transferred from the Prussian army to the inter-war army and thus to the Nazi forces. Let's see, if I have counted right then there were at least 18 "official" side arms of the Wehrmacht.

    Harold
     
  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I still kick myself for missing out on a Hi Power with the Waffenant eagle/swastika on one side and an Israeli star on the other. The seller had imported a bunch of old Israeli Hi Powers and this was among them - $400.
     
  9. harolds

    harolds Member

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    That's a hard one KB, but of course I slap myself around for letting go of a practically new K43. It had about 40-50 rounds through it total.
     
  10. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    It looks like you are correct Harold. A quick google search turned up this: "7,800 Schnellfeuer pistols were purchased by the Luftwaffe in 1940." (http://www.g6csy.net/c96/c96_faq.txt)

    I never though about the Spanish models (there were quite a few in the 1930s). I cracked open one of my books - it references not only the Astra 400 and 600, but also the Astra 900 (aesthetically a C96 'copy', but internally very different) and the Star Model B.

    I also realized that I forgot about France -- the MAB Model D was produced under German supervision, as was the SACM M1935A
     
  11. harolds

    harolds Member

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    By my count that's 22. More if you count the Mauser Model 1910/14/35 series as 3 different weapons. What do you think?
     
  12. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    I'll skim through my book and see what else I can find. As far as I know, the Mauser pocket pistols are all internally similar, so I guess that they can all be considered the same. I do, however, believe that they were offered in two different calibres (.25 and .32), so you might want to count this series as 2.
     
  13. DocL

    DocL Member

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    Also the Astra 300, Dreyse 1907, Steyr 1912, and we can't forget the various "Volkspistole"s.
     
  14. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Counting the "volkspistols" as one, that's 27! Question: was mauser 1910 series actually adopted by the Wehrmacht with a waffenamt number or were they private acquisitions by officers?
     
  15. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    After skimming through the Standard Catalog of Military Firearms, I've updated my list:

    German Manufactured:
    • P08 Luger
    • P38 (and all variations)
    • Mauser M1914/M1934 'Pocket Pistols' (favoured by senior officers)
    • Sauer 38H-type pocket pistols (and all variations)
    • Mauser HSc (favioured by senior officers)
    • Walther PP
    • Walther PPK
    • C96 (Luftwaffe and SS used the "Schnellfeuer" automatic version)
    • Dreyse M1907
    • "Volkspistole"
    Central/Eastern European Manufacture:
    • AUSTRIA: Steyr Model 1912 (some rebarreled to 9mm Luger for "police use")
    • CZECHOSLOVAKIA: CZ 24, CZ 27, CZ 38 (aka 'P39')
    • HUNGARY: Femaru M1937 (popular with the Luftwaffe)
    • POLAND: Radom VIS 35 (a large amount made under German supervision, quality continuously declined over the course of the war)
    • RUSSIA: Tokarev TT33 (large numbers captured after Barbarossa)
    Western/Northern European Manufacture:
    • BELGIUM: FN Model 1910, FN Model 1922 (360k produced under German occupation), Browning High Power
    • FRANCE: MAB Model D, SACM M1935A, Unique Model 17 ("Unique Kreigsmodell")
    • NORWAY: M1914 (aka 'Norwegian 1911')
    • SPAIN: Astra 300, Astra 400, Astra 600, Astra 900 (externally similar to the C96), Star Model B

    That should cover just about everything. By my count, that's 29 pistols. There's no revolvers on the list -- It seems that most Germans weren't fans of revolvers. The one exception that I can think of is Goering, who surrendered to the Americans with a Smith and Wesson chambered in 38 Special!
     
  16. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Did the SCMF say whether or not the Mauser 1910/14/35 pistol was an issue weapon or was just privately acquired by officers who had the option to buy their own?

    Another question: Of all these, which one would YOU want to take into a tight spot?

    Me? I'm trying to decide between three of them.
     
  17. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    It appears that the 1910 was not an issue sidearm, so I removed it from the list. However, the 1914 and 1934 were definitely issue sidearms.

    On the 1914: "Almost all Model 1914 pistols between serial numbers 40,000 and 180,000 will be seen with German military acceptance marks" (source: Standard Catalog of Military Firearms). Even though this refers to WW1, I'm sure that some officers would have retained them through the interwar period, and a number likely showed up later in the war. Like the Model 1934 below, the Model 1914 was popular with the Kreigsmarine.

    On the Model 1934: The 1934 is a slightly modified version of the 1914, and look nearly identical. This was standard issue until it was replaced c.1941 by the HSc as an officer's pistol. They were popular with the Kreigsmarine, but the SS and Heer also used them to some extent.
     
  18. harolds

    harolds Member

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    It should be noted that while the Norwegian 1911 clone was indeed accepted into German service, it was just at the end of the war. Therefore, it is doubtful that many, if indeed any at all, found their way into the hands of Wehrmacht servicemen.
     

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