Armor in Berlin

the one thing I would say out of the troubles of locating any existing documentation crazy for the units of all sorts in Berlin as that nearly all fell to the last man without one to publish after war historical books. the Nordland volume is good but still rambles from the Stug Abt. to the 503rd SS Heavy Tiger II unit and then says it was an co-existing unit the two of them which dependent on the time frame is true but then again not.

 

A very good point. And even where first-hand info is available, by this time most of the Germans were likely more concerned with surviving than documenting.

Which Nordland book? I'll look into that one, rambling or not!

:cheers:

 

Poking around in Wikipedia after finding that suspect Dora tidbit- found this. Not much, but... /shrug

Battle of Berlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Crazy

do you have armor battles of the W-SS by Fey ? also do you own volume 2 of Wofgang Schneiders Tigers in Combat ?

am very disjointed the last days due to my cycling accident which does not want to go away so hope this will make some sense to you. some years ago back in the 1970's I received from a German research historian friend a copy of a letter from Königstiger Kommandeur Georg Diers who fought in Berlin, bottom line there were at least 6 heavies from his 503 SS Schwere Panzer Abt. whom were attached to Herm.von Salza in name only as that unit had predominantly Stug III's and a few Panthers at it's disposal. Diers said that what was left of his heavy Panzer unit fought it out in Pommern and slaughtered the Soviet armor of all sizes but in reduced numbers back towards Berlin to the heart of the city where they of course were encircled, they formed an ad hoc defensive circle somewhat like an old cowboy type of wagon train in the oblong round darting from one runined building to another, any Soviet tank exposing itslef was vaporized at close range, protection was from the French/German/Swede volunteers from Charlemagne, Feys AT group, what was left of the Norldand Infatire units, some Heer units/Flak and Fallshirmtruppen. Panzerfaust were everywhere firing off and after they got the word that Hitler had popped himself, total dissolvement occurred, the SS panzers were blown sky high or left to be popped by Soviet tankers, while the SS Panzr crews took off many using the pre-flooded tunnels to be either shot and killed or somehow escaped to the west removing their camo/leather uni's and wearing civilian clothing. Diers mentions that from Pommern to the last two days in Berlin he destroyed some 56 Soviet tanks. time and time again he mentioned that there was to be a break out attempt of the heavies and relief was on it's way but his crew for one knew their time was at hand and the war was over, but they did their duty

one long OOP volume is Korps Steiner which covers Nederland/Nordland and the 503rd W-SS Sch. Pz.'s.

the 503rd W-Ss Panzers claim to fame is it's very own claim of over 400 Soviet tanks destroyed and countless vehicles. of course all we have is a scant biographical history of the unit in Schneiders work and others and brief glimpses of memory of those that survived which were very very few. Could the claims be true ? possibly numerous targets with Soviet overwhelming presence it is no wonder if true that some Panzer crews could amass the totals they claim as this unit like the sister 502nd W-SS Schw. Panzer were used constantly to plug gaps where no German armor was present as the last sealant possible

 

not disjointed at all, Erich- as usual, great info from you!
(Can I just stick you in my bookshelf for reference? )

I've got both volumes you noted, and have been slowly going through Fey in amongst other books. I had figured that Fey would have some relevant info to this topic, as he was fighting until the very end, and lived to tell his tale. Just haven't gotten into Armor Battles full on due to other books and time.
Same for Schnieder- and the real problem with Tigers in Combat II is that I managed a while back to get one of the last JJF copies as opposed to the stackpole reprint- so every time I open that volume up, I wind up getting distracted due to the massive volume of great photos and info! Two hours later, I'm shaking my head thinking "Wasn't I looking for something specific here?"

"Could the claims be true" of the kill numbers for these Tiger tanks in Berlin? Personally- I'd hesitate to put all my stock in a SPECIFIC number there, but I bet those numbers could well be a very close representation of the actual kills. Not specific- with the chaos and confusion we've already noted during the Berlin battle, I'd think the soldiers would likely put more stock in simple survival as opposed to getting their numbers 100% exactly correct. But as far as a VERY CLOSE estimate goes- I'd say believable. Tiger IIs fighting in defensive engagements against any enemy tank would be a good bet to rack up some impressive kill numbers!

The lovely wife is photographing a wedding this saturday- maybe if I can get housework out of the way and put off the next batch of brewing until sunday, I might just have a whole afternoon/evening of time to sit back with a few beers and get some really good reading done. Hopefully I'll have some tidbits from both Fey and Schneider to add on to the ones you posted!

:cheers:

 

The problem seems to be that no one bothers to check that the other side lost that number of tanks.
This thread
Axis History Forum • View topic - Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.
has very detailed breakdowns of the Soviet losses.
There are a number of German claims where individual/small groups of tanks claim 50+ upward kills and I think they are 'optimistic' to say the least. The main asset of the German tanks was their 'long range hit' superiority and this no longer applied in the streets of Berlin

 

On Halbe pocket:

Battle of Halbe: Information and Much More from Answers.com

 

Crazy :

Did you know about the nearly unknown Kriegsmarine participation while in Berlin. I am going to be writing soon a fellow that served in Unteroffiziervorschule im Wesermünde and in 1945 he and his Kamerades were sent off to the Oderfront and finally in Berlin as part of the Panzerjägerkompanie of the 1st Marine Infantrie Division. Of course he is one of the very few that were captured/interned and in his case was not released till 1949. have to do some more hunting down on him but he has written a very concise book on his life and his buddies while serving in the specialized school and their time on the Eastern Front

Greetings

E ~

 

Pardon this "necro-post", but looking for something else I stumbled across this thread and noticed the references to Tiger II's at Halbe and to Willi Fey and his Armor Battles of The Waffen SS and offer my two cents.

Fey's book is a mishmash of semi-official after-action reports, regimental histories, diaries and reminiscences. One of the problems with it is that often the segments are not attributed to a particular author. So it is with the section on the Halbe Pocket which is written by a tank commander who survived to break out. It appears to me that Fey himself is the author, and it is a chilling tale indeed - a riveting account which recounts as savage, merciless and unrelenting fighting as I've ever read. Truly hellish. I can't remember exactly but it seems there was some specific reference about the author's tank as a Tiger II. And I had the impression the other remaining tanks were Tiger IIs.

As for Fey, I am confused as to how, if he was in the Scwhere SS Pz-Abt. 502 breaking out from Halbe, he got to Berlin at virtually the same time to supposedly be such an aggressive tank hunter squad commander that he was awarded (almost on his own authority after the war) the Ritter Kreuze. Surely then he could not have been the author of his book's segment on the Halbe breakout. But I still don't know how it was he reached Berlin for the final party.

 

From what I understand, in the battle of Berlin the Germans had around 30 workable tanks (Had the little fuel to drive, little damage etc) and around 50 others that were parked and inoperable except for the turret. I cant image those poor men having to move those tanks around by people power.

There were numerous anti-tank guns and anti aircraft guns which had then turned to anti-infantry roles. They had a handful of artillery pieces that were of little use. They also had a few armoured cars there as well. But for those poor souls they had a couple gallons of fuel to drive anything.

 

Hi.

A bit late post to this thread, but anyway here's some info about armor and troops in Berlin:

A) sSS Pz Abt 503: Total of six (6) Köningstiger (King Tigers or Tiger IIs) in the inside district of Berlin, government quarter, the citadel (Innenstadt von Berlin, Zitadelle (Z)) during 29.4.1945 - 2.5.1945.

Köningstiger Kommandanten (King Tiger commanders): 1. Hauptscharführer (Hscha.) Körner, 2. Unterscharführer (Uscha.) Diers with Tiger II number 314, 3. Unterscharführer (Uscha.) Turk, 4. Oberscharführer (Oscha.) Stolze, 5. Untersturmführer (Ustuf.) Schäfer and 6. Obersturmführer (Ostuf.) Lippert.

The sSS Pz Abt 503 commander Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Herzig had his HQ in Reich Air Ministry (Reich Luftfahrtministerium).

Note on Oscha Stolze's Köningstiger: On April 26th this Tiger's commander was Unterscharführer (Uscha.) Bender, who got wounded on April 29th. Bender was then replaced as a commander by Unterscharführer (Uscha.) Semik, who in turn got wounded on the very next day on 30th April. Thus on 30th April Oscha Stolze took command of this particular Köningstiger. Later on 2nd May Oscha Stolze and Ostuf Lippert changed their Köningstigers; i.e. Ostuf Lippert took command of Oscha Stolze's Köningstiger and vice versa.

Note on Uscha Diers's Köningstiger: Uscha Diers with his Köningstiger took part in the famous break out attempt at the Weidendammer Bridge on 2nd May. Diers and his crew knocked out (i.e. set on fire, confirmed knock outs) 39 tanks in Berlin only, probably the total was more than that in Berlin.

Note on Hscha Körner's and Oscha Stolze's Köningstigers: Hscha Körner and Oscha Stolze tried to break out of Berlin with their Köningstigers during the dawn of May the 2nd at the Spandau Bridge.

Note on Ostuf Lippert's and Ustuf Schäfer's Köningstigers: Ostuf Lippert and Ustuf Schäfer with their Köningstigers took part in a break out attempt at the Schulenburger Bridge on the 2nd May led by Generalmajor Mummert.

Note on Uscha Turk's Köningtiger: Uscha Turk lost his Köningstiger on 1st May while running into a shell crater during fast drive in the direction of the Weidendammer Bridge; Turk was in his way to join Diers in a break out attempt at the Weidendammer Bridge.

All six Köningstigers of the sSS Pz Abt. 503 were thus lost in Berlin battles. These were the very last Köningstigers of sSS Pz Abt. 503.


B) SS Pz Rgt Nordland was reduced to the size of Abtailung (battallion) by the time of end battles in Berlin. The Abt. (Bn) that took part in Berlin end battles was SS Pz Abt. Hermann von Salza. During 29.4.1945 - 2.5.1945 Panzer Abt. Hermann von Salza had only six (6) Mark IV tanks, six (6) Stug. IIIs and six (6) Sd.Kfz. 251/1s (SPWs). SS Pz Rgt (Regiment) Nordland belonged to the 11. SS-Freiwilligen (Volunteer) Panzer Grenadier Division Nordland (11. SS Pz Gren Nordland Div.).

The commander of SS Pz Rgt Nordland (and of course SS Pz Abt. Hermann von Salza) Obersturmbannführer (Ostubaf.) Kausch had his HQ in Reich Chancellery (Reich Kanzler).


C) There were also other elements the 11th SS Nordland Division fighting in Berlin, namely 1. SS Pz Gren Rgt Norge (Norwegians) under command of Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Saalbach with roughly 200 Pz Grenadiers (about size of the 2 companies), 2. SS Pz Gren Rgt Denmark (Danish) under command of Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Vollmer with also roughly 200 Pz Grenadiers (about size of the 2 companies) and 3. SS Pz Gren AufK. Abt. (Recon Bn) with circa 50 vehicles (mainly SPWs like Sd.Kfz. 251/1s and 250s plus few armoured cars).

Recon Bn was already badly mauled while entering Berlin battles (less than company size troops), hence these remaining about 50 vehicles were given to SS Pz Gren Rgts Norge and Denmark. The remaining Recon Bn Grenadiers were mixed into SS Pz Gren Rgts Norge and Denmark.

SS Pz Gren Rgt Norge commander Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Saalbach (former Recon Bn commander) had his HQ in a building on Leipzigerstrasse near Splittermarkt. SS Pz Gren Rgt Denmark commander Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Vollmer had his HQ in Friedrichstrasse U-Bahn Station. Former commander of SS Pz Gren Rgt Denmark Obersturmbannführer (Ostubaf.) Klotz was killed on the 20th of April and Stuba Vollmer took over the command of the SS Pz Gren Denmark.

Other additional troops of 11th SS Nordland Division fighting in Berlin were: 1. One company, circa 90 Pz Grenadiers, of Swedes and Finns under command of Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Pehrsson (Swede), 2. One company, circa 90 Pz Grenadiers, of Latvians and Estonians under command of Obersturmführer (Ostuf.) Nielands (Latvian) and 3. A platoon of Belgian Pz Grenadiers.

The commander of the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division was first Brigadeführer (Brig.Fhr.) Ziegler and later Brigadeführer (Brig.Fhr.) Kruckenberg (after Ziegler had been sacked on the 25th of April). The command HQ place for Kruckenberg was U-Bahn Stadtmitte (center); the 1st command post (HQ) of Kruckenberg was Opera House on Unter den Linden, but Russians took it on the 30th of April 1945. Kruckenberg's adjutant was Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Pachur.


D) 33rd SS-Freiwilligen (Volunteer) Gren Division Charlemagne: 1. SS Gren Abt. (Bn) Charlemagne (French) under command of Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Fenet (French) with roughly 90 - 100 French Grenadiers (about + 1 company size) and 2. SS Gren Jagdkommando (tank hunters) under command of Obersturmführer (Ostuf.) Weber roughly 40 Grenadiers; Standartenjunker (Sta.Ju.) Fey was the 2nd in command of Jagdkommandos and later commander after Weber was wounded.

The commander of the 33rd SS Gren Division Charlemagne was first Brigadeführer (Brig.Fhr.) Kruckenberg and later Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Fenet (after Kruckenberg took higher command responsibility of Berlin end battles together with Mohnke). The command HQ place for Fenet was first a building on Prinz - Albrechtstrasse and later Reich Air Ministry (Reich Luftfahrtministerium).

Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Fenet was in practice given the command of the all fighting troops of 33rd SS Gren Division Charlemagne (see above), including SS Gren Abt. (Bn) Charlemagne, SS Gren Jagdkommando plus later attached circa 100 - 150 Hitler Youths and Volksturm Militia and about 100 police officials.


E) Pz Abt. Kummeldorf / Pz Abt. Müncheberg: Pz Abt. Kummeldorf was integrated into Pz. Abt. Müncheberg on 14th of March 1945, hence the correct name during the Berlin end battles is the Pz Division Müncheberg. The remaining tanks in Berlin (29.4.1945 - 2.5.1945) other than those stated already above (i.e. those 6 Köningstiger of sSS Pz Abt 503 and SS Pz Abt. Hermann von Salza's 6 Mark IV tanks and 6 Stug. IIIs) belonged to Pz Division Müncheberg. The exact number of Pz Division Müncheberg's tanks in Berlin isn't known, but there were at least one (1) Jagdtiger (was it still operational?), five (5) Tiger Is, two (2) Panthers (maybe more), six (6) Mark IVs (maybe more), some Stug IVs (3?), some self-propelled flak halftracks (5?) and some Sd.Kfz. 251/250 halftracks (10?) plus some armoured cars left within Pz Division Müncheberg for the Berlin end battles on 29.4.1945 - 2.5.1945.

The commander of the Pz Division Müncheberg was Generalmajor Mummert (Major General).


F) Brigadeführer (Brig.Fhr.) Mohnke also had his own Kampfgruppe (KG) circa 1900 - +2000 men, depending on source. Nevertheless, KG Mohnke consisted of: LSSAH Guard Bn (SS-WchB 1) under Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Kaschula, LSSAH Pz Gren Ausb and Ers B 1 Bn (training and replacement Bn), under Obersturmbannführer (Ostubaf.) Lingemeyer, LSSAH Führer Begleit Kommando (Führer Special Bodyguard Unit) under Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Günsche, SS Begleit Kommando (another Führer Special Bodyguard Unit, but with no LSSAH members) under Sturmbannführer Schädle, officers and clerks of SS Main Offices under Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Mrugalla?, stragglers from SS divisions who had made their way to Berlin and were integrated into "Berlin Bn" under Hauptsturmführer (Hstuf.) Schäfer and finally LSSAH Rgt 1 Anhalt under Standartenführer (Staf.) Anhalt (named after its commander Anhalt) and later Sturmbannführer (Stubaf.) Wahl (after Staf Anhalt was killed on the 30th April). The command HQ place for both Mohnke and sacked Ziegler was Reich Chancellery (Reich Kanzler).


G) Other "major" units that took part in final battles in Berlin (29.4. - 2.5.1945) were leftovers of 9th Fallschirmjäger Division (only fragments left), some Dutch SS-Freiwilligen (Volunteer) grenadiers (maybe a size of platoon, but no more), maybe a company size of 101st SS-Freiwilligen (Volunteer) Spanish and of course remnants of the 18th Pz Gren Division under Generalmajor Bärenfenger fighting along with and side by side the Müncheberg Pz Division in the Tiergarten.


sSS Pz Abt 503 and SS Pz Abt. Hermann von Salza together destroyed/knocked out circa 480 -500 tanks and 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne plus 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division (i.e. SS Pz Gren Rgt Norge, SS Pz Gren Rgt Denmark,plus other additional troops of 11th SS Nordland Division) destroyed/knocked out circa 62 - 80 tanks in Berlin end battles within 12 days during 20.4.-2.5.1945. Pz Division Müncheberg is believed to have destroyed/knocked out circa 220 -260 tanks during the same time period. The Soviet army lost circa 800 tanks in Berlin 20.4.-2.5.1945.


Hope this helped at least a bit.

AJJ

 

yes indeed, thanks


..fascinating collection of material relating to the above in an 80 page thread at panzer-archiv.de

Thema anzeigen - Kampf um Berlin - Materialsammlung - Panzer-Archiv

 

HvS had Panther Ausf D's not Mk IV's plus Stugs and were hand in hand with Schwere Pz Abt 503 and their Königs. this from first hand accts of those of HvS that made it out of Berlin .....very very few, as well as below:

heavy conversational contact with members on missing-lynx web-site and W-SS author Marc Rempinsole (sp) ?

I say heavy contact with M.Lynx members as this topic went on for severql years and still going on to the by-product of the W-SS Panzer elements in Berlin.

As For W. Fey my understanding he was never in the Heavy Pz abt 502 when they received the "heavies", he had already left. 502 Pz SS skirted Berlin and made their escape south and then finally west not being consumed in Berlin along with the famous Hetzer W-SS Abt. 541 which had quite a few kills to it's credit

 

You might also want to check out this link on the Axis Forum. Among the postings are a good number of photographs of knocked out German vehicles in Berlin. Page 4 and 5 also have good TO&E's for this battle, although they too might not be complete.

Note particularly some of the oddities in the photos. Czech armored cars, prototype vehicles like the Waffenträger 38d mit 8.8cm Pak 43, and the Mk V WW 1 tank among others.

Axis History Forum • View topic - Berlin Panzers 1945

 

This supposed to be a pic of the Mk V in Berlin. Or whats left of it.

 

Go down about half way on page 3 of the thread I listed. There are two much clearer photos of this tank; and it is clearly a Mk V.

 

Hmmm all I could find in that thread was this shot on page two .
Axis History Forum • View topic - Berlin Panzers 1945


altes2[1].jpg (14.58 KiB) Viewed 2827 times

 

Sorry, much be dunker than i thought....

How many fingers am I holding up?

 

LOL I was confused for a second .

 

Hi FalkeEins, thanks for the link, I need read all the +80 pages of it; good pics and info; thanks!

Hi Erich, thanks for comments.

Yes, according to German records, SS Panzer Abt. Hermann von Salza had 1 company, 11 Pz V Ds and 8 Stug IIIs on 1.1.1945. SS Pz Abt. HvS received more Stug IIIs on 30/31.1.1945 and returned to the front in early February 1945. On 12th of February SS Pz Abt. HvS reported 2 Pz V Ds, 37 Stug IIIs and its Pz Jg (Jäger = tank hunter) Abt. 24 Stug IIIs. A month later on 12th March SS Pz Abt. HvS reported their inventory of 2 Pz V Ds, 26 Stug IIIs and HvS's Pz Jg Abt. was in order to receive 10 Pz IV/70Vs during the second half of March, but SS Pz Jg Abt. was detached to X. SS Korps, and hence left its parent unit (Pz Jg Abt. nonetheless lost its all Stug IIIs before detachment).

By the time of 29th April SS Pz Abt. HvS had lost all its Pz V Ds and most of its Stug IIIs. On 26th April Brig.Fhr. Kruckenberg reported 6 Köningstigers (those of sSS Pz Abt. 503) and 6 Stug IIIs (those left of SS Pz Abt. HvS) ready for action. Later on 1st of May according to available reports there were 5 Köningstigers (those of sSS Pz Abt. 503 minus Uscha Turk's lost Köningstiger) and 6 Stug IIIs (those of SS Pz Abt. HvS) and 6 Pz IVs (probably either G, H or J types or most likely a combination them, i.e. some Gs, some Hs and some Js) ready for action for Kruckenberg. Therefore, it's clear that those six Stug IIIs were original TOE equipment for SS Pz Abt. HvS and only ones left (see the report on the 26th of April), but those six Pz Mark IVs weren't original TOE equipment for SS Pz Abt. HvS. Thus, we can only speculate that these mysterious 6 Pz IVs were either confiscated from somewhere (not likely) or tanks returned from tank repair shops and then taken over by SS Pz Abt. HvS (quite likely) or that the reports are incorrect (not likely, but of course possible). However, there isn't any mentioning in any reports or books that SS Pz Abt. HvS had any Pz V Ds in Berlin and certainly not anymore by the 26/29th April.

Sure, it's possible that somehow SS Pz Abt. HvS had Pz Vs and namely Pz V Ds (according to their original TOE) in Berlin, but unless I see any written reports or mentioning about it in any history book, I seriously doubt the existance of any SS Pz Abt. HvS's Pz V Ds in Berlin. AFAIK all Pz Mark Vs aka Panthers, wheather Ds, As or Gs in Berlin end battles (26.4.-2.5.1945) belonged to either Pz Division Müncheberg or so called Panzer Kompanie Berlin.

True, Fey was in officers school (1.10.1944-30.1.1945; promoted to Standartenjunker (Sta.Ju.) aka officer cadet on 1.12.1944) by the time sSS Pz Abt. 502 was formed (from 9.9.1944 onwards, reestablished in Sennelager and the number changed from sSS Pz Abt. 102 to sSS Pz Abt. 502) and he never was a part of sSS Pz Abt. 502. Hence, Fey found his way to quick-response anti-tank units (Pz JagdKommandos under Ostuf Weber attached to 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne) in Berlin directly from officers school.

I hope this helped a bit more.

AJJ