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Auschwitz SS Radio Operator Charged

Discussion in 'Concentration, Death Camps and Crimes Against Huma' started by GRW, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. green slime

    green slime Member

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    It is estimated some 400,000 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz "during the summer of 1944" (Commandant Hoess' own admission), and April to July covers a large chunk of that. But even so...

    Part of the psychology is that it allows those not directly connected to the administration of the camps and their descendants to exonerate their actions (or inactions) during the war.

    Of all the countless judges, prosecutors and lawyers that willingly became instruments of Nazi policy, only 16 were prosecuted by the AMT, 10 were sentenced, 4 acquitted, 1 committed suicide, and the last was not brought to trial because of ill-health.

    "...over the 12 years of Nazi rule, during which time judges heard countless cases, most not only upheld the law but interpreted it in broad and far-reaching ways that facilitated, rather than hindered, the Nazis' ability to carry out their agenda."
    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007887
     
  2. green slime

    green slime Member

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    She was 9 when the Nazis took over, and can't have been older than 20 when an accessory to these crimes. Almost certainly indoctrinated in BdM as well. She may very well be both victim and perpetrator. Not the victim to have suffered the most by any means, of course.

    But educated lawyers, judges and prosecutors that had lived through both Imperial Germany, and the republic, that completed their university education in another time altogether, and that had plenty of opportunities to develop their own morale code under the influence of far more humane ideals, willingly enforced the vilest of laws raising no protest against the Nazi excesses, and instead fell over each other to prove their worth, and during the late 50's collectively decided "it wasn't worthwhile persuing war criminals" except the most heinieous.

    All the Journalists that willingly spread the cesspool of hatred and lies, the von Brauns that wilfully lent their expertise to spread further terror in the name of a horrendous regime,

    To say nothing of the medical community.

    Doctor Hallervorden amassed one of the largest collections of brains anywhere in the world; this collection was moved from Berlin, and after the war the Doctor became head of the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research.
    "...those brains offered wonderful material, of mentally poor, deformities and early children's diseases. Of course I accepted the brains. It really wasn't my concern where they came from and how they were brought to me.'
    We know he was physically present at the killing of children. He wasn't just "accepting a donated brain"

    In 1936, 45% of the registered physicians in the Third Reich were members of the Nazi party. Furthermore, by 1937, physicians were seven times more likely to be in the SS than the average employed male in Germany

    Dr. Herman Stieve, chief of anatomy at the University of Berlin, timed the execution of prisoners with the Gestapo to study the effects of psychic trauma on women’s menstrual patterns. After execution, the bodies were dissected and the pelvic organs were removed for histological examination. He published reports based on these studies and lectured to medical students on the same subject. After the war, he became dean of the medical school of Hunbolt University in East Berlin.

    Other doctors made money by selling the skeletons of victims.


    Most Nazi doctors who worked in the camps – there were over 300 voluntary physicians dispatched to the different concentration camps by the SS – fled from the approaching Allied armies. Quite a few killed themselves; a number have served prison sentences, which were generally light for the crimes committed. Most, however, returned to medical practice and continued until retirement.

    The doctors’ trial at Nuremberg found 15 Nazi physicians guilty of war crimes and 7 were sentenced to death. But what happened to the rest of the Nazi criminal medical community?

    In most instances the bestial misdeeds were overlooked without any real consequences. The favorite theory of the post-Nazi era was that the medical crimes of the Hitler regime were committed by a few deranged demonic physicians working in isolation from the mainstream of German medicine! The fact that the medical profession as a whole and not just a handful of physicians was implicated in the indescribable offenses that occurred in the Nazi era is amply documented.
     
  3. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    That sounds straight out of a 1970s social work training manual; "she's-just-a-poor-victim-of-society".
    There's such a thing as taking responsibility for your own actions.
    Sophie Scholl was also a child when the Nazis came to power.
     
  4. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Strawman argument: Never said there wasn't. I never claimed she was innocent. Just that this is whole case is rather farcical, and not much to do with "justice" nor "law".

    Sophie Scholl was older, by 3 years. Sophie Scholl was also a daughter of an ardent political opponent to the nazis, one whom also called Hitler "the scourge of God" in 1942, for which he was imprisoned for four months. I wonder how many German youth had fathers that had that strength of character....
     
  5. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    No, you just claimed she was indoctrinated; in other words somehow not responsible for her actions.
     
  6. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    If I understand correctly, your contention is that this is more a political stunt then an actual search for justice. That many of these ardent Nazis could have/would have been charged and tried postwar?
     
  7. green slime

    green slime Member

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    It was those educated, intellectual people we all expect to be the leaders/pillars of a society that let Germany, no, that let all of Humanity, down. Nazism was not just an eclectic collection of failed chicken farmers, brutal, unintelligent thugs, and mad sadists, which modern narrative would have us believe. Those leaders of society (and I don't just mean the Nazis leadership clustered in Hitler's immediate vicinity) let down civilised society, prior, during and after the war. As a society as a whole, Germany wanted to forget so it "forgot". Now, it wants to eradicate the shame of pretending to forget, so it is chasing mere pawns; no one in any position of responsibility is going to be alive now. The time for justice is long passed, this is just showcasing. Creating headlines around the world.


    Furthermore, the whole premise is quite flawed; it based on the supposedly legal precedent of John Demjanjuk's conviction in 2011; however, there are remarkable inconsistencies in that case, and Demjanjuk died before the appeals process was completed, and is therefore still by German law, considered innocent! This then, is the truly remarkable situation: because of the precedent of an invalid "conviction" of a man still legally considered innocent in Germany, (around which there are huge questions regarding his identity, and the FBI have concluded that the Soviets KGB Division 14 forged Nazi identity papers to incriminate him), the German courts now feel entitled to continue persecuting based on mere presence at a scene. Prior to the invalidated verdict, not a single person had ever been convicted thusly. Page through transcripts of previous Nazi trials and you'll find a rigorous focus on particulars, because that is what should be required to convict a defendant.
     
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  8. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    That's in line with German law, from what I can make out from this (p5)-
    "German law has traditionally taken a strong stand against prosecutorial discretion, considering such discretion to be inconsistent with the rule of law and a violation of the principles of equal justice. Even today German law gives the prosecutor no discretion in the most serious cases and explicitly requires the prosecutor (and therefore the police as well) to investigate and prosecute every crime that is committed. German legal writers contrast the German "legality" principle with the American "opportunity" principle."
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/gap.pdf

    There's also this on p70-71-
    "Probable cause: One concern about the hypothesis that Tatverdächtige are the equivalent for statistical purposes of arrestees in serious criminal cases is whether the quantum of probable cause required to categorize a suspect as a Tatverdächtige in Germany is less than that required for arrest in the United States. The "probable cause" required for arrest in the United States cannot be easily quantified or defined. It is clear that probable cause requires more proof than reasonable suspicion and less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Some older authorities suggest that it normally requires a preponderance of the evidence, but the U.S. Supreme Court has not endorsed this standard and its most recent pronouncements speaks only of a "fair probability" of guilt [(Illinois v. Gates (1983); LaFave and Israel (1992)].
    When German police identify a particular individual as the person who committed a crime, they "clear" the crime and classify the person identified as a Tatverdächtige. They then submit a report to the prosecutor about the case indicating that this person is suspected of committing the crime. German law does not seek to regulate reports sent from the police to the prosecutor. There is thus no legal requirement that the German police establish the equivalent of "probable cause" before transmitting information about that individual to the prosecutor. No law would therefore be violated if the police identified persons as suspects even if the level of proof available was extremely low. As a practical matter, however, there would be little advantage to the police for such a course of action. The police not only are very conscious of the limits of their own resources, but also they know that the prosecutor will file charges only on those cases where there is sufficient proof."
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/gap.pdf

    To me, "probable cause" would be -
    -She was an SS member
    -She was present at a location where crimes against humanity by the SS are known to have taken place
    -She served as the radio operator for the camp commandant, therefore she must have had some knowledge of what was happening and is therefore an accomplice.
    (US definition- can't find a German one)
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/probable+cause
     
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  9. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    GS you make a compelling argument. And I find it difficult throughout my studies of the Holocaust and postwar Germany to disagree with many of your statements. The entire business with this woman is very misleading or, dare I say, incomplete. I would like to see the file on her in depth. I wonder how much publicity this trial, if it ever really occurs, will have and it's effect on the nation. In addition, I can surely see the other side of the coin and the need for members of organizations that are seeking justice, however late in their lifetimes. I believe she is culpable and should suffer the consequences of being a part of the machine.

    As you can see, I stand directly in the middle. I guess I'm a bit of a Humpty Dumpty in this case, just sitting on the wall waiting for more information. However, my allegiance is to my conscience.
     
  10. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Good point. Be interesting to see what actually happens if/when this actually gets to trial.
     
  11. green slime

    green slime Member

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    We don't even know what actions she personally did, or how she found herself there.

    Being indoctrinated, does not remove responsibility, but it may diminish it.

    As with most things in life, it's not an either/or proposition.
     
  12. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    *bumped* for an update on the proceedings, and also her role at the camp-
    "Medical experts will decide next month whether a 92-year-old female radio operator, who received the details of incoming shipments of Jews to be murdered at the Auschwitz extermination camp, will stand trial for her involvement in genocide.
    Prosecutors want to put Helma M., who is described her lawyer as 'deaf and frail,' in the dock for her role in the efficient running of the complex in Nazi occupied Poland where an estimated 1.2 million people were murdered during WW2.
    Helma M., who lives in an OAP home near Neumünster in Germany, escaped justicde at war's end because no-one could prove she had personally harmed anyone within the camp near the city of Krakow.
    But the prosecution rules have shifted since then. Now it is enough to bring prosecutions against former camp guards merely for serving as part of the Nazo 'murder machine.'
    Consequently Jens Rommel, head of the central authority in Germany charged with prosecuting Nazi war crimes, has charged her with complicity in the murders of 260,000 people in the camp.
    In her role as a radio operator of the S.S., Mr Rommel said she received and transmitted details of the liquidation of that number of people - most of them Hungarian Jews - between April and July 1944.
    Mr Rommel said: 'Helma M. was involved in the so-called 'Hungarian Action' which saw the destruction of at least half the Jewish population of Hungary.
    'Three to four trains arrived daily. Of 360,000 people, at least a quarter of a million of them were murdered immediately, most of them women and children unfit for work.'
    He said the killings were organised in the command area where Helma M. worked. He said she knew when the trains arrived and when they left Hungary.
    When she received news that a train was on its way, S.S. personnel were scrambled to meet it to select those who would live and those who would die instantly.
    Helma M. came from Mrągowo, formerly in East Prussia, now part of Poland and knew no other life than that under the Nazi regime."
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636247/Former-SS-radio-operator-92-received-details-train-loads-Jews-murdered-Auschwitz-faces-genocide-trial.html#ixzz4BHkCkzFy
     
  13. mac_bolan00

    mac_bolan00 Member

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    "helped the camp function." the camp didn't kill inmates. they were brought into the gas chambers under specific orders.
     
  14. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Thanks for the update.
     
  15. ZeJanIt

    ZeJanIt Member

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    Yes any and everyone involved with these camps should be charged. They could have helped, gave bread, been nice...anything. I understand orders... If I had been ordered to serve at once of these death camps, I would have took pictures, as "trophies" to the other guards, but to me to help document, to hep convict, I would of help feed, been nice, protect where I could.

    as for the jap camps, EVERY LAST ONE of those fake samurais should be put to death! honorable indeed!!!! then they come to our sacred ground Peral Harbor to gloat over the bodies our real honorable dead men.

    in my life, any American man that served in WW2 is a hero and welcome at my house anytime. I love, study and learn WW2 everyday, everyone should.
     
  16. green slime

    green slime Member

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    I've said this before, in another thread:

    Let's not kid ourselves what we would do. There's a reason why the righteous amongst nations only numbers 25,271, against a mainland Western & Central European population in 1939 well in excess of 100 million. Yes folks, that's well less than 1 individual in 4000. In the heart of the continent that brought us the Enlightenment, and a host of other humane ideals.

    As studies have shown, the vast majority of humans follow the pack, we have a need to belong to a group. It's a part of our identity. If the flock runs left, the vast (and I do mean vast) majority run left.

    Having seen first hand how police states can repress by proxy, as well as witnessed a group's capacity to edit selectively the memory of shameful events (Going from "We all discussed this issue, and it was agreed by all..." to a unanimous "we never discussed this as a group at all, and we hadn't decided" in the space of a week), I have no doubts at all as to the capacity of my fellow humans to self-deceive, and their willingness to be seen as part of a superior group, with their opponents deserving of every inch of humiliation and punishment, even death.

    Its very easy when you are sitting in your chair in front a computer in a state that respects human rights, without threats from the state (explicit or implied) to declare how nice you would have been. The reality is, people are not nice, they flock. You either fit in, right next to the rest of the herd, or you are rejected. In 1942, that would probably mean sitting in a KZ yourself, or dying a meaningless death on the Ostfront. If you could possibly keep your value system intact after a decade of propaganda. With the unchallenged propaganda of the Nazi state perculating through both the school system and the expected extra-cirricular activities of the Nazi Youth Organisations (non-participation was really suspect and frowned upon), few German youth questioned the reality depicted by the regime.
     
  17. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    We're not all sheep, and that was true in Nazi Germany too-
    The 100 individuals who refused to kill civilians and DIDN't get executed. Unfortunately you'll need ti log into read the whole article.-
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1429971?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
    Here's a better link to that story-
    http://www.colorado.edu/ReligiousStudies/chernus/4800/Kittterman.pdf

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/408671/HOLOCAUST--THOSE-WHO-DEFIED-ORDERS-TO-KILL-JEWS-DID-NOT-DIE-RESEARCHER-SAYS-AT-BYU.html?pg=all

    The subject was discussed in here a while back-
    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/44084-did-any-german-soldiers-refuse-to-obey-orders-to-commit-atrocities-and-what-happened-to-them/?p=492814
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Indeed, yet there was ever coercion and the threat of retaliation against those that refused. It is easy to say today "Oh, but no one actually was executed for refusing to kill Jews." It is sufficient that the large majority believed they could and would themselves be persecuted. There were at least two cases of people getting sent to a KZ.

    Still, 100 cases is pretty low, when you consider the large numbers of people involved. It is significant, that many found themselves fed into the frozen meat grinder of the war in the East. David Kitterman seems to think that ranked as a "lesser consequence".

    Given the numbers involved; we have a greater chance of dying in a car accident, than being one of the few people willing to make a stand against an authoritian regime bent on Jewish Genocide. Yet no one thinks twice of travelling by car.

    We need to value and recognize the exceptional courage of those individuals that did refuse, well before we assign ourselves to their daring circle by self-appointment.
     
  19. ZeJanIt

    ZeJanIt Member

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    I completely agree that most humans are sheep, but there are plenty of stories of in human atrocities of humans not following the pack and saving, documenting and more. maybe I would have been bashing little babies heads in with the rest of the SS trash, but I don't think I would. I most likely would of went into the Wehrmacht and died fighting for lies and falsehoods like the rest.
     

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