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Aussies in a brawl again...

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by CAC, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana WW2|ORG Editor

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    Wait! That implies there are intervals without brawls?
     
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  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Who do they think they are...Hockey Players?
     
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  4. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    As it may have wet your appetite...

    Top 10 AFL brawls...



    And a thing we call "State of Origin" - Mate against mate...state against state. (Rugby League)

     
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  5. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    I love Baseball fights because of how terrible baseball players generally are at fighting.........I love hockey fights because they know how to fight, and it's part of the game

     
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  6. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    OK... NHL vs NRL...

    Baseball vs AFL...we should talk to a promoter...
     
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  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana WW2|ORG Editor

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    Where's the cricket riots?
     
  8. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Cricket is...ok was a gentlemans game...

    [​IMG]
    Dennis Lillee and Javed Miandad (Pakistan)

    The Poms changed the game forever with their "bodyline" bowling during the Bradman era...they couldn't get him out so the plan was to hit him with the ball...
    [​IMG]

    "The Don"

    They have statues of him in India...head and shoulders above ANY player in history...he averaged 99.96 runs every time he went to the crease to bat. Hes worshipped in the cricketing world...Ive heard of leaders of terrorist groups cancelling attacks on Australian soil because of our cricketing reputation....and Bradman.
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana WW2|ORG Editor

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    So it's more of an anti-terrorist organization than a game?
     
  10. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Hehe...I only pass on what ive heard.
    The game is dying in Australia...players are just in it for the money...go to India and play in the IPL getting millions per season...drive their flash cars and model girlfriends...sledging that goes beyond what it used to be...and the latest ball tampering debacle (which saw the captain and other players stood down) - Australia DOES NOT cheat.
    Above all they are flogging the game with shortened (bastardised) versions of the game like 20/20....the skills are being lost, players are not in it for Australia anymore, just the money.
    I think its still the only game that can go for five days and end in a draw!
     
  11. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    I watched the beginning of a documentary just last night about the war in the Pacific. It noted that the first challenge to winning the war against Japan was to find a way to keep the Americans and Aussies from fighting with each other.
     
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  12. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Have you heard or seen the newspaper headline: ‘over payed, over sexed and over here!’
    Couple that with the tall poppy syndrome I’ve spoken about before with Australians...everyone is equal, anyone who thinks they are better than someone or something...is in for a hiding.
    I think the Yanks probably had an even harder time with the Kiwis...but thats another story.
     
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  13. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    That's one of the problems I've found with televised documentaries over the last several decades, not well researched, have a tendency to generalize, and strong on drama, weak on facts.

    The fact is the American/Australian experience depended largely on who you were, where you were and when you were there. For some the highlighted portion of above quotation is totally accurate, for others it proves largely false. If the documentary were well done it would have delved a little deeper into the subject, identified the causes, and shown it was not a universal experience. It can best be illustrated by the different experiences of US forces headquartered in Brisbane and the experience of the 1st Marine Division in Melbourne. In both cases cultural differences led to friction between the Americans and their Australian hosts.

    If you were a soldier in Brisbane the statement was largely true and eventually resulted in "the Battle of Brisbane" on 26-27 November, 1942. MacArthur and his entourage of staff pogues and remington raiders descended upon Brisbane where he set up his headquarters. Australians are an independent people, they can be led but not driven, they also have a very strong, innate sense fair play.

    In Brisbane you had Americans at their worst (not all, but generally), from the top down. MacArthur was arrogance at its worst, when he stood up the SWPA command he appointed General Thomas Blamey as Allied Land Force Commander, but refused to allow him to command American Forces (insult). Even though George Marshall, US Army Chief of Staff, suggested he appoint appropriate Australian officers to senior posts in his General Headquarters he refused, (insult, but he probably also realized Australians are not sycophants and would be unwilling to kiss his highness's arse). He spoke disparagingly of the combat performance of Australian troops fighting along the Kokada Track, The US Army troops that had yet to see combat were all arrogance and bravado. When they finally did get into action, during the early fighting some dropped their weapons and fled from the Japanese. At Buna where Australian troops and US soldiers first fought side by side, it was US inactivity and lack of spirit that shifted the bulk of the fighting onto the Australians, exactly the same "traits" he had disparaged in the Australians earlier. He however sought to ignore the failings of his own men. He would accentuate the role of US forces while downplaying the contributions of the Australians. None of these things went unnoticed. (unfair)
    The US soldier was paid much more than his Australian counterpart (an unmarried Australian private made only 27% of the weekly pay of an unmarried US Army private). The Australian population had to deal with rationing and had no access to many luxuries. The US Army provided PX's where everything from silk stockings, chocolates, cigarettes, hams and alcohol could be procured in quantity and at discount prices. This largess was flaunted by the US personnel in Brisbane. Australian soldiers were forbidden from entering these facilities. (unfair). The soldiers sauntered around in spiffy new uniforms, fancier than that worn by the Aussies. The US military police that patrolled Brisbane had a tendency to be arrogant in their dealings with both Australians and US soldiers, and often abused their power. When violence did break out, it was dealt with by using additional, more heavily armed MP's.

    Then you can contrast that with the Marine experience in Melbourne. There is hardly a first person memoir by a 1st or 2d Division Marine that doesn't mention the strong friendships and cordiality of the Australian's of Melbourne (1stMarDiv) or of time spent in New Zealand (2dMarDiv). When the HBO mini-series "the Pacific" came out one of the criticisms was the entire episode devoted to their time in Melbourne, it was a defining point in the Marines war experience. Movies about the US Marine war experience made during the decade after the war almost universally made mention of their time there. What was different? We can take it point by point, the Marines had the same cultural attitudes the soldiers did and there was friction in both cases.
    1.) The Marines came back to Melbourne directly from four months of combat and deprivation on Guadalcanal. There was a very real fear that Japan would invade Australia (in retrospect we know that wasn't the case, but they lacked this knowledge in 1942); Guadalcanal was just across the Coral Sea from Australia and the Marines struggle was well documented in contemporary newspapers and magazine articles. When the 1st Marine Division was finally pulled out (the 2d Marine Division stayed on the island with the US Army to complete mopping up) there really was a popular view that they were "The Saviors of Australia". Australians being strong on fair play were grateful.
    MacArthur and his staff, willfully ignorant of the conditions the division had endured (just as they had been about what the Australians had endured at Kokada) and how badly depleted they were initially were going to bring them back and quarter them in a swamp near Brisbane. General Vandergrift vetoed the idea, but had no way to move his troops. "Bull" Halsey, a real combat leader that had actually been visiting Guadalcanal during the night the IJN battleships bombarded the Marines made sure the Marines had whatever support they needed.

    "Subtropical Brisbane on Australia’s east coast was not the place to send a collection of sick-on-their-feet young men, but Brisbane was where the 1stMarDiv was going. The upper echelons of theater headquarters, even further removed from reality than by geography, had decided that “after a short period of rest,” the 1stMarDiv would be employed in constructing and then manning beach defenses to guard against a feared Japanese invasion.
    At dockside in Brisbane, descending the ladder of the transport that brought them there, the first arrivals of the 1stMarDiv looked little different from a collection of scarecrows. The ragged, dirt-encrusted dungarees most wore rarely had been off their backs since August. Few of the men walked steadily; most stumbled, staggered and lurched, not merely resembling scarecrows but drunken scarecrows in the bargain. A frightening number of them, too weak to manage something as ordinary as walking, fell and tumbled down the ladder.


    Ragged, worn out and dirty they were, but practically every man had saved his prized Marine Corps emblems. The men wore them proudly, affixed to dungaree jackets and covers, telling the world they were United States Marines.


    Watching them disembark was a group of senior officers from theater headquarters. Nearby, only slightly less ragged than the worn-out starvelings making their way off the ship, a division staff officer turned to the neat, clean, well-fed onlookers. “There are your saviors of Australia,” he offered.


    If the arrival was disheartening, the accommodations were worse. Much was said and written—none of it complimentary—about the camp they were assigned. “Don’t call it a camp,” a battalion commander commented. “Just say we’re dispersed in a swamp.”


    Gen Vandegrift moved swiftly to correct a condition that would have meant the disintegration of his command. He did not ask theater headquarters to move the 1stMarDiv to a more temperate climate. Gen Vandegrift flatly and unequivocally told headquarters that the division would be moved.


    “Sorry,” came the response. There was no shipping available. Hearing that at his headquarters in New Caledonia, Vice Admiral William F. “Bull” Halsey, one of the greatest fighting seamen America ever had, proved himself to be one of the Corps’ and 1stMarDiv’s greatest friends. If the division needed transports, VADM Halsey would provide them.


    Where did Gen Vandegrift wish the division to be taken? Sydney, filled to overflowing with uniforms, was considered briefly and discarded quickly. Inquiries were made in Australia’s second-largest city, Melbourne. “Bring your lads here,” was the response. “We will show you and your men every hospitality.” On Jan. 11, 1943, the first contingent of Marines began disembarking from the transport USS West Point (AP-23) in Melbourne. It was the beginning of a love affair between U.S. Marines and Australia that never has ended."
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  14. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    -continued

    Note the line; “Bring your lads here,” was the response. “We will show you and your men every hospitality.” That was the Australians innate sense of decency, for men they felt had sacrifice much for them. They just wouldn't know how much till the Marines arrived.
    The Marines didn't have a MacArthur to sour the relationship. Initially, they had only the ragged utilities they worn since August, no fancy uniforms. There were no PX's overflowing with goodies that the population did not have access to, and well fed well dressed soldiers to flaunt. The Australians had to do without many things and many other things were strictly rationed, but they could see they were infinitely better off than the malnourished scarecrows, ravaged by tropical diseases, many too weak to walk off the ships, that landed at Melbourne.
    There were so many sick that the Australians turned over the recently completed Royal Melbourne Hospital to the Marines for as long as they needed it. The Marines khaki uniforms were too light for the winter chill so Australia outfitted the Marines with Australian winter battle-jackets. What the Marines had done was well known and their combat ability was not questioned. The Marines for their part were glad to have any little luxury or comfort, they weren't full of arrogance and false bravado, they were just glad to be alive. The Australian's seeing that most were just boys, 18-19 and 20 years old, invited them into their homes and informally adopted them, seeing their own sons and brothers that were serving or had been killed fighting half the world away. To the Marines it was almost like being home and they returned the affection for the people of Melbourne.

    "Young June Bebee’s father watched them coming in at Williamstown docks. “Those kids looked exhausted. They’re all young, and they’ve been through a lot,” he told his family that evening. June Bebee had no idea that among those “exhausted kids” was the man who would be her husband for almost 60 years.

    To sick, weary men who had been immersed so recently in near impassable jungle and all but bottomless swamps, crawling with leeches, venomous snakes, poisonous spiders, scorpions, centipedes and clouds of malaria-bearing mosquitoes, Melbourne at first sight appeared as an improbable vision from another world. Recording his first reaction to seeing civilization after months in the green inferno of Guadalcanal, one Marine wrote: “Around us lay a city of wide streets, taxis, trolleys, department stores, bars, hotels, gas stations, street lights, soda fountains, factories, row after row of houses and thousands of friendly people.”

    They were so fully adopted by the Australians that when they finally sailed off for new campaigns, the division received more mail from Australia than they did from the US!

    "The division never returned to its home away from home in Australia. For the first year after departing Melbourne, the 1stMarDiv received more mail from Australia than it did from the United States. “You would never know these fellows were Americans,” wrote one division chaplain. “All they talked about was Australia.”

    There were some incidents, including a big brawl, when the Australian 9th Division first returned from the Middle-East and they felt the American Marines had taken over. Instead of following the actions of the SWPA in Brisbane and assigning more MP's, more heavily armed, they adopted a typically Marine Corps solution. The Marines hosted the Australian 9th Division to a beer bust and barbecue at the Melbourne Cricket Grounds, beer was served in paper cups so the two sides couldn't beat each other with bottles or mugs, no MP's were present. It worked.

    "That Capt Brusiloff’s suggestion worked was best attested to by one Australian. “What the hell are we fighting for, Yank? There are plenty of sheilas to go around, and there are more than enough Japanese. Let’s have a beer, mate!” It was just a case of fighting men getting to know one another."

    The full article I took the quotes from is here:
    Marines in Australia, 1943: “Bring Your Lads Here. We Will Show You and Your Men Every Hospitality.” | Marine Corps Association

    Another article by Richard B. Frank here:
    The Melbourne Interlude | U.S. Naval Institute

    "Departure from Guadalcanal brought the 1st Marine Division to General Douglas MacArthur's Southwest Pacific Area. Initially the exhausted division was routed to Brisbane, Australia. "Don't call it a camp," railed one battalion commander. "Just say we were dispersed in a swamp." General Vandegrift dispatched staff officers forthwith to scout for a better location. They found the ideal tonic for the division: Melbourne, located in cool, mosquito-free southeastern Australia. When the transport West Point (AP-23) delivered the division there on 12 January 1943, the Melbourne population embraced the Marines in a tumultuous reception.


    In the first weeks, malaria laid low as many as 7,000 men. While that was the greatest scourge, the bodies of most men further served as involuntary playgrounds for a host of other jungle diseases. Bone-deep weariness and weight loss also figured prominently in the division's ills. It took weeks of rest in the salubrious climate as well as infusions of suppressive drugs to tame malaria and the other afflictions that had wrecked the division's combat readiness.

    For the majority of the Marines, still extremely youthful by age but now matured beyond their years in experience, Guadalcanal radically dimmed out memories of their recent past. With its wide and lighted streets, trolleys, cars, bars, hotels, houses, and above all warm and exuberant population that greeted them as the "saviors of Australia," beautiful Melbourne presented an idealized version of life without war. The locals literally opened their houses to provide anyone who desired his own home with family life instead of a billet. Most Marines also entertained aspirations for companionship beyond domestic tranquility. They found the Australian girls alluring, and romances flourished. "There were many engagements and a few marriages," deadpanned the division historian.

    One of Melbourne's distinctions when the Marines arrived was the scarcity of other servicemen. That changed when the fabled 9th Australian Division, veterans of the battles of Tobruk and El Alamein in North Africa, staged through Melbourne en route to further combat on New Guinea. After a number of pub brawls, the Leathernecks staged a joint beer party that brought peace for its time between the members of the two hard-fighting units.

    Training for the 1st Marine Division's next operation began as early as 18 January but initially moved at a very modest pace. The highlight of the first phase was acquainting the Leathernecks with the M-1 rifle. Despite much nostalgia for the M1903 Springfield, the M-1 offered much-superior firepower. Between March and May, training progressed to small-unit tactics and then landing exercises. An Army team that inspected the division in August 1943 concluded that it "is well equipped, has a high morale, a splendid spirit and approximately 75% of its personnel have had combat experience. The average age of its enlisted personnel is well below that in Army Divisions." The report further observed the division's key leadership officers from company level up and the vital NCOs were overwhelmingly combat savvy.

    The division shipped out of Melbourne in stages between August and October 1943. There is one unmistakably true measure of what Melbourne meant to the division. For a year after departure, the 1st Marine Division postmaster noted more outgoing mail went to Melbourne than to the United States. Some relationships between Marines and their hosts would endure a lifetime."
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  15. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    Good read, thanks. I have heard it said that every soldiers war was in a 12 foot circle. That would be about 3.6 meters for the rest of the world. :)
     
  16. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Your statement is also very true, each soldiers experience was unique.
     
  17. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    [​IMG]
    McArthur in Brisbane...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The MCG piss up! Luv the digger standing in the middle...Wheres the piss!?
    [​IMG]
    Marines in Melbourne...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

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