Banzai charges

..let's see ----2 companies ''enmeshed'' in barbed wire....the unit just about wiped out = and Ichiki's was an organized assault???!!!! what would a disorganized assault have looked like--'''accomplished'''?!!

 

Either way a banzai charge or some type of coordinated bayonet attack into defensive positions held by U.S. Marines will result in pretty much a high casualty rate for the aggressor...but by then the Japanese were desperate for any break thru. I find the banzai charge on Attu Island interesting, as part of the Japanese broke thru but suddenly stopped and starting eating captured rations, while the rest blew themselves up with grenades.

The First Banzai Charge was Actually in Alaska

 

We need to keep in mind the other side, in this case the Marines, get a say in the matter. It is possible to execute a well planned attack and still lose and lose badly if their opponent is better, more numerous, better supplied, or just plain more lucky.

I'm not a expert on the Japanese military, but what I have read and seen stressed that like the French in the Great war they stressed elan and speed over firepower, especially in the attack. Further during their conquest phase they often executed attacks with a minimum of support and planning in ground assaults with great success against the ABDA forces they encountered.

We now know those ABDA forces were either poorly trained, equipped, supplied, organized, led or some combination of all these factors. It is certainly possible, if not probable, that Ichiki and his subordinate officers thought that if they went in in the same old way as usual they would get the usual result. Granted underestimating a enemy is a cardinal sin, but they did have empirical evidence for that belief, for the ABDA forces they had no such excuse.

 

..they must've been hungry......?

 

"Emeshed"?

Let's see...

Guadalcanal Marine by Kerry L. Lane
Hmmm...Many more breached this minor obstacle...Hardly sounds like "emeshed."



Combat. Guadalcanal 1942-43; US Marine Versus Japanese Infantryman by Gordon L. Rottman, does not mention the barbed wire interfering with the Japanese attack at all. It get only passing mention that it has been strung.

"No Bended Knee - The Battle for Guadalcanal" by General Merril B. Twinning also has no mention of barbed wire concerning Ichiki's attack. Mostly it is focused on the firepower of the Marines' machine guns & 37mm canister.

I would think that if the barbed wire was the deciding factor, these two books would have at least mentioned it.

Perhaps, it was not as decisive compared to the overwhelming firepower possessed by the Marines.

 

Some did, and some didn't. Ichiki was one of those who favored "bamboo spear tactics"(closing with the enemy quickly & getting into hand-to-hand combat). It had worked very well for him in China.

Yes, and any high cost in Japanese casualties was seen as an acceptable price for victory.

 

Neither commander distinguished themself on Guadalcanal, both were too overconfident in themslves, their troops, and their battle plan. Both, also greatly underestimated the American Marines to their detriment.

To be fair though, the Japanese played by different rules than the rest. They lacked the armor & mechanization, hence did not have the mobility of the rest. They also lacked the artillery support & air support that became one of the hallmarks of the Allies later in the war.

Also, casualties were seen as an acceptable price for victory, so many of their assaults were bloodied than they could have been. But, this was also an outgrowth to make up for the modern armor & artillery that they lacked.

 

so, the unit wiped out with no real accomplishment--and it was organized?? hahahaha

 

Of course, the Japanese got massacred...The Ichiki Detachment was equal in the number of men in a Marine Battalion. The Ichiki Detachment attacked a section with two battalions of Marines.

That is a 1:2 ratio, when CW says the ratio should be 3:1.

The "big one"...it is neither big, nor the one, as source material vastly differs on it's effectiveness(if any). The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

The "big one", which all sources agree upon is the Marines overwhelming fire superiority. The well- sighted 37mm cannons firing canister and the machine guns of the Marines, backed up by 60mm & 81mm mortars, and 75mm & 105mm howitzers.

The overwhelming firepower is what stoped the Japanese, not the barbed wire.

Like Kawaguchi, Custer overestimated his ability, and greatly underestimated that of his opponent. Custer was disorganized, because like Kawaguchi, he split his unit up into 3 pieces. Like Kawaguchi, his units attacked in disjointed fashion(Reno first and he is beaten back, and then Custer). Like Kawaguchi, 1 unit remain unengaged in the assault(Benteen). Also, like Kawaguchi, Custer lost control of his unit(it was separated into 3 parts). Finally, Custer was mostly done in when his men ran out of ammunition.

The night was dark - there was no moon.

It had been raining off and on all day.

Perfect weather for a night bayonet attack.

First, you completely ignore the word "PARTIALLY"...you seem to read it as "all".

Second, as I responded earlier, "emeshed" seems to be a gross overstatement. One source calls it a minor obstacle, and two sources never mention it pertaining to the battle.

Now, given that Ichiki only attacked the position with the wire with the wire with 2 companies(first the 2nd Company II/28th Infantry, and an hour later, 3rd Company II/28th Infantry). Why do you seem so surprised that 2 companies hit the wire? I would think that would be obvious?

And what of Ichiki's 3rd attack at 0500? It flanked the wire by going out into the surf...They were slaughtered just as easily as the first two attacks.

Yes, when it was strung quite densely. Care to cite any other instances of a single strand of barbed wire?

You have stated the assault was disorganized...Ichiki's assaults were organized. They were carried out as Ichiki intended. The OUTCOME, however was not as Ichiki intended, because his assaults failed. Kawaguchi's assaults were disorganized, as they were not carried out as he intended. Organized - Disorganized.

Remember, you are not arguing that the assault BECAME disorganized, you are arguing that the assault WAS disorganized. However, this appears to be beyond your ken.

Only goes to show you do not know what you are talking about. Also goes to show that you have not been paying any attention to what has been said.

Ichiki's 2nd Machine gun Company did not assault the Marine position, Ichiki's 70mm gun platoon did not assault the Marine position, and Ichiki's HQ Company did not assault the Marine position.

So, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL of Ichiki's men directly assaulted the Marine positions.

Remind me again...WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME TO PROVE THE IMPOSSIBLE?

And many more got through the SINGLE STRAND of barbed wire...See previous quote.

Yes, you have repeatedly said jungle, jungle, jungle.

Except, Ichiki did not fight in the jungle. His first 2 assaults went across a sandbar about 7-15yards wide, and the 3rd assault charge across a beach.

So, broad daylight would be a much better time for a bayonet charge. Darkness is to the advantage of the attacker seeking hand to hand combat.

So afraid that they attacked three times that night.

Yeah...No.

Proven, over and over again, that the attack was organized, but not well planned or well thought out.

You seem to be the only one thinking it is a board game.

There is that "PARTIALLY" again. 2, 3, or a dozen, is partially 2 companies, but evidence does suggest more. Given that 2 companies assaulted the position, it is a no-brainer that 2 companies would encounter the wire. Yet, you seem surprised that 2 companies would encounter the wire.

Caps for emphasis only.

 

......so 2 companies got tangled up in barbed wire --and their assault was still organized?

 

o, and, perfect conditions for a bayonet attack does not prove the attack was organized--that's just babbling

 

And just because it is dark does not prove that it was disorganized. Even more so because Ichiki trained his detachment to execute night bayonet attacks.

 

You keep forgetting that word "PARTIALLY"...Funny how you keep doing that.

Granted, the word "all" is in "partially". However, "partially" does not mean "all."

And, yet again, you are forgetting that you are arguing the assault "was" disorganized. Yet, for some odd reason, you are arguing it "became" disorganized.

So, to reiterate...No one is saying the attack did not "become" disorganized. 37mm canister and machineguns tend to have that effect.

 

..I've got all the bases covered on this one--it's airtight ...
AND you did say it--stop trying to double talk:
your post #35
''''It was not a "disorganized" assault, but a poorly planned one''

 

Your players are all in the dugout, with none of the bases covered, an it's as airtight as a screen door.

Yes, it was an organized assault.
Ichiki's men were in position in time to start the assault...True...You have not proved otherwise.

Ichiki's men faithfully carried out the assault as intended by Ichiki...True...You have not proved otherwise.

Ichiki's men struck the target Ichiki intended...True...You have not proved otherwise.

1st base, 2nd base, & 3rd base. You have not covered any bases.

Assault...Organized.

 

ok--

 

..a lot of them didn't even get anywhere near the Marines --they were massacred
ok ok ..they were organized to be massacred ...hahahahah

 

..also as I state a lot--reality--realistic = the Japanese had just moved about 20 miles--in humid, hot jungle....they are not in top shape/etc....
..what was their water supply like?

 

hahahhahah--what the h does this mean?:

....the assault was disorganized.....the assault became disorganized
now THAT is some double talk babbling = nonsensical
''was'''...''became''' ......hahahahha..??!!! .....how about '''became'' and therefore ''was'''.....?
!!! hahahahahah
I'm loving the double talk/babble.....
caps for emphasis only

 

The joke is on you...

The ratio of Japanese troops to Marines. 1:2.

Japanese artillery: 2 70mm mountain guns
Marine Artillery: 24 75mm howitzers + 12 105mm howitzers.

AT guns capable of firing canister
Japan none.
Marines organic + 2.

Mortars
Japan had a handful of 50mm knee mortars.
Marines had their full compliment of 60mm & 81mm mortars.

The Americans had an overwhelming fire superiority. Yet, you somehow seem completely surprised that the Japanese got massacred by all of this firepower.