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be you damned for ever and ever

Discussion in 'Political Cartoons & Caricatures' started by wm., Sep 19, 2016.

  1. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    That is irresponsible writing of two activist pseudo-historians.
    They aren't interested in history, they interested in their leftist ideology.

    All the information is from archives of Polish courts, the courts that tried and sentenced wartime common criminals.
    They irresponsibly extrapolated the information found there for the entire country.

    During the occupation social order collapsed in Poland, and as a result, a mass of criminals and criminal gangs that preyed on the civilians emerged.
    The result was that tens of thousands of people were robbed or killed including Jews.
    Even before the war, impoverished Poland suffered from high crime rates, including murders - mass murders (5 or more at one go) were common. It was much worse during the occupation.

    Actually the same happened in the Ghettos where social order collapsed too.
    Don't ask me to prove it, you will see things that can't be unseen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  2. Durruti

    Durruti New Member

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    Wow.

    There was certainly a lot of bloodshed caused by Ukrainian terrorists on the border with Poland in the interwar period, if that's what you mean by crimes.

    Um, Polish involvement in the murder of Jews during and after the war the war is well documented.

    I think you're confusing ideology with historical reality. Viz, the Roman Catholic Church's vehement antisemitism (including the repulsive blood libel). Wayback Machine

    See the well documented Kielce Progrom of 1946.

    I am certainly NOT saying that all Poles were guilty of these crimes, nor that there were not Poles who heroically risked their lives to protect Jews from the Nazis and others. Nor am I saying there was something inherent in the Polish character to be anti-Jewish (cf. Goldhagan).

    What I am saying is that there was a strong current of antisemitism in Polish society during and after the war.
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    The aftermath of the dissolution of 4 great empires (Imperial Germany, Austro-Hungarian, Imperial Russian and Ottoman) following the Great War unleashed political and ethnic conflict from the Arctic Circle to the Aegean and Black Sea.

    That much violence only begats more violence with each participant often both victim and perpetrator at differing times. We were living witnesses to this during the breakup of Yugoslavia.
     
  4. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The only "conflict" that really counts is the Communist revolution and the resulting communist state.
    The calamity that resulted from it, the number of murdered people, the number of destroyed lives is unparallel in history and dwarfs even the Holocaust. Only the Maoists in China "improved" on that.

    The states that were re-established after the Great War fought out the difference between them very quickly and that resulted in an almost 20 year-long period of peace in Eastern Europe.
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    On this forum, such subjects aren't usually discussed. It's populated by Westerners who just want to discuss their own relatively nice history. You should try axisforum in this case.
    Nobody here has the knowledge and expertise required to discuss such subjects.
    Even more, you invaded unrelated thread destroying its purpose and let's say "innocence."

    It's true that the Ukrainians murdered hundreds of thousands of Poles, Czechs, Russians. It was the Ukrainians because the massacres were ordered by their own government, which wasn't supported by all Ukrainians, and in fact murdered thousands of Ukrainians too, but still, it was the main and only political force in Ukraine. And today in Ukraine the movement that did it is revered and cherished.
    So the Ukrainians did it. They committed an act that could be arguably called a genocide.

    In Poland no political party, group, government, the Church supported or advocated violence against Jews.
    I will give the 2020 Mercedes-Benz CLA to anybody who demonstrates even a shred of evidence to the contrary.
    so it wasn't the Poles, it wasn't Poles - it was criminals.

    As I've said social order collapsed in Poland around 1943 and it lasted till maybe 1948. Poland became a lawless country.
    Millions of best Polish men were missing, they were fighting in the West, languished in concentration camps, POWs camps, Gulags, Siberia, or were working as slaves in Germany.
    The rest was reduced to sub-humans.

    Social order collapsed in rural areas, and it collapsed (and earlier) in Ghettos.
    In Ghettos, people were massively robbed, killed, raped, snitched on to the Gestapo too - by their own folks.

    Actually it was a far-right party - "Front for the Rebirth of Poland" that initiated help efforts to the "deported" to gas chambers Jews. Led by a Catholic woman - Zofia Kossak-Szczucka.
    Their efforts resulted in ┼╗egota (Council to Aid Jews) an organization that provided help to estimated up to 60,000 Jews.

    About 50,000 Jews survived in occupied Poland, and not Germans saved them. Actually, to save anybody, under the constant threat of execution - superhuman efforts were needed.
    Because of the grinding poverty, hunger (the Poles were allocated 700 calories per day), and people living statistically four per room.

    Lots of Jews survived thanks to the Church - especially Jewish children - in convents. Because the convents were ordered to help them by the Church.

    And remember this: it was better and appropriate to send the Jew away to his death - than risk your life and your family. It was better if one died than many.

    In no European country, the Germans executed people for helping Jews. But in Poland, they executed thousands - sometimes for giving a Jew a piece of bread.
    The question is what were they afraid of - if they had to resort to such drastic measures.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  6. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    btw that article on Wayback Machine is junk history.
     

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