Beaching the Yamato questions

Did naval intelligence know ahead of the time of the plans to beach Yamato on Okinawa? When was this fact discovered? Did they know it then, or did it come out after the war?

Also, where on the island were they going to beach her? Was it going to be at the landing areas, or a distance away to give plunging shell fire?

 

Wikipedia states that the Task Force was to "beach themselves between Higashi and Yomitan and fight as shore batteries until they were destroyed." The Wiki article seams to rely heavily on a single book; Requiem of the Battleship Yamato, which I do not have a copy of....yet. I will flip through my copy of Japanese Destoyer Captain when I get home later to see what that has to say on the mission.

 

Supposedly this is a Myth, Widespread rumors that the ship was only given enough fuel for a one-way trip are false; "Feifer" debunks this.
The Japanese had a plan to beach the Yamato on Okinawa's shore and use it as a land battery. What good would these be on land?

Battle of Okinawa

 

Desperate people will do desperate things.

 

Well, why would it not be good? Would the Yamato's guns destroy themselves because of not floating on an ocean to recoil the way they would normally do?

However, being a non-moving object, Mitscher's bombers would probably have an even easier time putting the guns out of action.

 

I have not read Feifer's book, but after a couple quick searches it seems that while his book may make this claim, he does not cite anything that provides evidence of this. Indeed the whole link you provided is based off of a single source, Feifer. A very bad link in my opinion. example: "Shortly before the battle, the Japanese warship the Yamato was sunk by American air power on her trip to Okinawa." Obviously this is inaccurate as the Yamato sortied on April 6. The article then simply states "Widespread rumors that the ship was only given enough fuel for a one-way trip are false; Feifer debunks this." Why is this false? There is no explanation as to why. Of course when you check the references the source is, surprise!, Feifer

A cursory view of my own bookshelf shows three books that all claim that there was enough fuel for a one way trip.
The Rising Sun, Toland
A Battle History of The Imperial Japanese Navy, Dull
Japanese Destroyer Captain, Hara

Again, I do not have a copy of Feifer's book but Hara's may give a hint as to why there might be some confusion. On page 265 Hara states "The 72,400-ton battleship Yamato came close to shore to pick up pipes from the Tokayama fuel depot, and the tanks of this huge oil center were soon drained". On the next page Hara states that his own ship, Yahagi, refueled from Yamato. So perhaps Yamato did have enough fuel, if she was not fueling the fleet in which she sailed. Of course this is my own speculation.

As to beaching the ship, Why wouldn't you want a battery that can fire 25 miles? Many nations, including the US used old battleship guns as coastal artillery.

At ULITHI: None of my books mentions where she was to beach herself, but that she was to support ground forces.

 

I believe these are two good reasons, that ship would of been destroyed by Bombers very quickly.

I did say Supposedly, the information can be found in The book is Feifer, The Battle of Okinawa.


I found also this info but not in that book However, despite obeying orders to prepare for the mission, Admiral Seiichi Itō, commander of the Ten-Go force, still refused to actually order his ships to carry it out, believing the plan to be futile and wasteful.

Other commanders of the Imperial Japanese Navy had very negative feelings about the operation, believing that it was a waste of human life and fuel. Captain Atsushi Ōi, who commanded escort fleets, was critical as fuel and resources were diverted from his operation. As he was told that the aim of this operation was "the tradition and the glory of Navy," he shouted:

This war is of our nation and why should the honor of our "surface fleet" be more respected? Who cares about their glory? Damn fools!
​

Operation Ten-Go - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I did state Supposedly Look I found an other source same info on WIKI

Shortly before the battle, the Japanese warship the Yamato was sunk by American air power on her trip to Okinawa. Widespread rumors that the ship was only given enough fuel for a one-way trip are false; Feifer debunks this (references).

The Japanese had a plan to beach the Yamato on Okinawa's shore and use it as a land battery. Not that it would have done them much good on land.== Answer ==

Operation Ten-Go - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Link of the Book in Question

The Battle of Okinawa: The Blood and the Bomb: Amazon.ca: George Feifer: Books


Operation Iceberg: The Assault on Okinawa - The Last Battle of World War II (Part 2) April - June 1945

Operation Iceberg: The Assault on Okinawa - The Last Battle of World War II (Part 1) April - June 1945

 

Is this a mistake? That is a quote from your previous link I think.

This doesn't help your case.

"Reportedly, in secret defiance of orders to provide the ships with only just enough fuel to reach Okinawa, the Tokuyama personnel actually gave Yamato and the other ships almost all of the remaining fuel in the port, although this probably still was not enough to allow the force to return to Japan from Okinawa."

So if she didn't have enough fuel to return, but had enough to get there, would that not be a one way trip?

Great a link with a review that makes a claim similair to another review I read

"Worse than the lack of maps is the lack of citing. He has quotes from many interesting participants and then doesn't provide the source. He has a lengthy bibliography, but you have no way of following up. This is especially critical because he challenges the generally held notion that Yamato only had enough fuel for a one-way trip to Okinawa. The author states emphatically that this is not the case, but does not source this controversial claim!"

This does not even mention Yamato's final sortie. Did you read your own links before posting in defense of your claim?

 

Would the Yamato's guns destroy themselves because of not floating on an ocean to recoil the way they would normally do?

Battleship guns have recoil mechanisms; the popular myth that battleships move sideways in the water when their guns fire - or need to - is just that. There's discussion of this and an article on the USS Iowa Lives thread.

Ships have continued to function and fire their main armament while aground, for example the old German battleships Schliesen and Schlieswig-Holstein after being sunk in shallow water in the last months of WWII.

 

I believe someone actually posted the amount of fuel she had on board when she left over on the ijn board. However given what she was going up against there was little or no hope that she was coming back. Beaching was simply a plan to get more out of her and her crew if she could make it that far. I suspect few Japanese exected it to actually happen.

 

I'd also be skeptical of using WIKI as a 'primary' source for the argument. While useful to find information on a subject, ANYONE can post ANYTHING on Wiki and as has been done in the past, a lot of WIKI information is wrong.

 

Just a note, it is true that "wiki" should never be used as a sole source but it can give a person a "starting point' from which to find out better information. Now, I haven't looked into this at all so bear with me. While I am certain the Japanese had no intent of more than a "one way trip" in mind, it would be necessary to carry more than just the bunker oil needed for the trip alone.

The Japanese would need the boilers to remain "fired up" even while the ship was beached just so they could provide electrical power to the weapons systems. It couldn't just sit there like a dead lump with the boilers cold. That would be useless.

 

I think it all boils down to interpetation. The Yamato and the other ships of the the "Special Surface Attack Force" most certainly sent there to help turn the tide of the battle. I would assume that it was the commander's intent for the ships to defeat the US fleet and use available fuel stores on Okinawa to refuel and head home. In the event that any of the ships became damaged, it was his desire to have the ships ground themselves on Okinawa instead of returning to Japan.

The remaining fuel in Japan represented all the fuel Japan had, if Okinawa was lost, so it most certainly was dispensed sparingly.

The Yamato had a range of 7,200 n/m so even 60% of her fuel would be more than pleanty to conduct operations.

The main problem I have is that the US allegedly intercepted radio traffic regarding the plan to beach the "Special Surface Attack Force" once it reached Okinawa.

I think this is more of an assumption, as I do not think such a plan would be discussed via radio amongst the ships in transit. And such an order would most certainly be delivered in person prior to leaving port. It is very likely that radio traffic was intercepted and the US forces knew the Yamato was enroute to Okinawa.

I don't think there is any grand conspiracy. More than likely any such beaching order was given as a last resort should the ship lose the ability to make it back to Japan.

 

Great Scott's What are you talking about???? What part Of Supposedly don't you Understand?? I'm not making any argument or a Case ICCI, I was just showing that theres an other version of the Story. That's the Only reference that can be found in the Book that I Never read????? there must be information in the Book that debunks as claimed by both links. I only found 4 links and all had the same info. I've always known the Original Story that's On WIKI, Yes many times the info provided is incorrect

Ok You read the Book??

Some reports stated she was suppose to fight the US Navel Force till the end even Ram ships +.

Operation Iceberg I found the read interesting and informative, was not posted to support the supposed argument your claiming about.

 

Well, if you can't figure that out....

I understand the definition of the word very well. Just in case here you go

sup·posed–adjective


1. assumed as true, regardless of fact; hypothetical: a supposed case.
2. accepted or believed as true, without positive knowledge: the supposed site of an ancient temple.
3. merely thought to be such; imagined: supposed gains.
Supposedly | Define Supposedly at Dictionary.com

Besides, a single word doesn't make an incorrect statement true, or prevent anyone from being capable of rebuking it. It is like stating "with all due respect" before you insult someone.

I am all for revising what is known about a particular topic, if it is true. Your own link contains reviews that claim he doesn't cite his sources very well and that it is extremely difficult for the reader to independently verify the authors findings. This raises serious questions about the validity of the book in my mind.

I'm sure that there is. You made the original claim, you can find it.

As Clint said, Wikipedia is a good starting point for your research. Less what is actually written in the article and more checking what their sources are. Gives you a very good idea on what books to read.

Re-read the thread. You will find your answer.
Usually when a person italicizes and places quotations around a statement, it is not their own. I should have conveyed that those were not my words better.

This response has nothing to do with the portion of my post that you quoted. Where are going with this?

Then why post it at all? If the topic is about ships, and whether or not they had enough fuel to return to Japan, why would you claim you found more web-sites with the same info, only to link to a site that does not mention it? It is completely off topic.

 

Yes but with mechanisms to to divert the kick Back from the gun Firing. This is a good question do you think the recoil would tip the Ship once beached.

 

The recoil is absorbed by the gun carriage in the turret and is not transfered to the ship in any form of lateral movement.



File:Animated gun turret.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia