Beevor books.......... and some other stuff......

www.antonybeevor.com

 

I just finished Beevor's The Fall of BerlinIt was good, but not great.
I just started Other Losses by Bacque.
This is THE book documenting the mass deaths of German soldiers at the hands of the Americans and French after WW2. I've never read it before, and it's really astounding information.
Conditions for the prisoners were worse than Andersonville and they estimate 1 Million people were killed. SHAEF withheld food shipments and blocked the Red Cross from entering the camps.
Eisenhower used a technicality to sidestep the Geneva Convention. Everyone should read this book.

 

Bacque's book is a hoax. His book was "shot down in flames" in any serious historícal review.

His "missing million" (at least 800,000) has been thoroughtly debunked as being missing on the East Front To construct something like a mass murder on German POWs by Western Allied Forces, he deliberately used a document carrying a typo he _has_ to realize, he is misinterpreting the term "other losses" as "killed", though knowing the real meaning, he misqoutes and garbles statements and secondary sources, he's suppressing evidence of the contrary etc.pp.

Though being completely debunked, his book is still a seller in revisionist and neonazi cirles.

See Arthur L. Smith: "Die Vermisste Million" (The Case of the "missing million"), 1992 and the Volumes of the German Maschke POW Commission or the various studies by Ruediger Overmans etc.pp.

Hope you didn't pay too much. As a history book, it's basically worthless.

Cheers,

 

Hmmm...I must admit the death of a million, maybe a million and a half German soldiers in western POW camps does sound strange. So I would not rush into it like that.

But I do believe that food supply was low and as all the population in Central Europe was escaping the Russians they sure had a problem to figure out, how to feed them...
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As well Ike did this, nothing new about that:

Eisenhower's method, according to Mr. Bacque, was simple: he changed the designation of the prisoners from "Prisoners of War" (P.O.W.), required by the Geneva Convention to be fed the same rations as American G.I.'s, to "Disarmed Enemy Forces" (D.E.F.), which allowed him to cut their rations to starvation level.

After the first week of May, all of Eisenhower's calculations as to how many people he would be required to feed in occupied Germany became woefully inadequate. He had badly underestimated, for two reasons. First, the number of German soldiers surrendering to the Western Allies far exceeded what was expected (more than five million, instead of the anticipated three million) because of the onrush of German soldiers across the Elbe River to escape the Russians. So too with German civilians - there were millions fleeing from east to west, about 13 million altogether, and they became Eisenhower's responsibility. Eisenhower faced shortages even before he learned that there were 17 million more people to feed in Germany than he had expected.

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http://www.jamesbacque.com/

But must admit there are quite alot of "supporters" to the book though I myself am not convinced:

Even if it´s for the money´s sake...

Other Losses has a foreword by US Army historian Col Dr Ernest F. Fisher Jr , who assisted Bacque for years in the research. An officer in the 101st Airborne in Germany in 1945, Fisher was appointed to a commission set up by US commander General Dwight Eisenhower to investigate atrocities committed by US soldiers against Germans. The commission exonerated the Americans, and Fisher called the decision "a whitewash".

Ernest F Fisher Jr? Anyone know him better?


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Document section of Warren F. Kimball's "Swords or Ploughshares...

Any idea on this?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1551681919/qid%3D1015245426/sr%3D12-7/002-8591283-0248043

The conditions changed only after Eisenhower's return to the U.S. and the appointment of Lucius D. Clay as High Commissioner.



Gonna check on this later on, but maybe someone has info?

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James Bacque Answers a Critic

He is unaware of the US Army report discovered by Richard Boylan, a senior archivist at the US National Archives, which confirms Lauben. The report plainly states that the "Other Loses" category of prisoners meant deaths and escapes. And finally, of course, 1,700,000 Germans, plus hundreds of thousands of other Europeans, are still missing from their families. This astounding fact is normally neglected by the Western apologists, unless they can also use it to hammer the Soviets, saying they all died in the Gulag. But now that the Soviets are gone, their archives are open and the truth at last emerges.

That truth is simple. The Soviets took some 4.1 million prisoners of war east and west, of whom some 600,000 died in slavery. Of the total take, some 2.4 million were Germans. Of these, some 450,600 died, the rest were sent home. Subtracting the 450,600 dead Germans from the missing 1.7 million, we see that some 1.25 million are still not accounted for. Of these, probably 100,000 - 200,000 died in Polish, Yugoslavian and other camps. The number remaining is very nearly the number I said in "Other Losses" of those who died among all Europeans taken prisoner in the West.

http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/bacque_letter.html

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OK, here´s the numbers he got for the analysis

For 45 years, historians have never disputed a massive survey conducted over four years by the government of chancellor Konrad Adenauer, which stated that some 1.4 million German prisoners had died in captivity. What is still disputed by the two sides is how many died in each side's camps. Each has blamed the other for nearly all the deaths.

The fall of the Soviet empire in 1989 provided a spectacular test of the truth: If the KGB archives recorded how many Germans died in Soviet camps, the world would know how many died in the West.

In 1992, I went to the KGB archives in Moscow, where I was permitted to troll the long, gloomy aisles, free to read and photocopy anything I wanted. And there I found the reports from KGB Colonel I. Bulanov and others showing that 450,600 Germans had died in Soviet camps. Given the figure of 1.4 million deaths, this meant that close to one million had died in Western camps.

http://serendipity.magnet.ch/hr/bacque01.htm

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In 1943, Washington not only transferred Col. Eisenhower to Europe but promoted him over more than 30 more experienced senior officers to five star general and placed him in charge of all the US forces in Europe....

I always wondered about this? Must admit he was the man to do the job!

---------

Then again...

It takes little imagination to see what happened here. The People's Militia consisted of older men (up to 60 years of age, mainly World War I veterans) and boys of 16 or sometimes less. American guards and camp authorities told the old men to go home and take care of their grandchildren, the boys to go home and return to school. Along with the transfers to other zones that Mr. Bacque ignores, these people account for all the "missing million."

Could it be that simple...I truly hope so.

---------

 

Well, the second book by Bacque has a foreword by Alfred de Zayas...guess Z. is still biting his ass for giving away his name for Bacque. Or maybe not and both are the same class of "historians"?

E voila!

The still missing Wehrmacht soldiers (as of today m 1.4 acc. to Red-Cross tracer service) must have died in Ike's "extermination camps", because the Soviet GUPVI never counted them!

Interesting theory, too bad that:

a) the vast majority of this "missing million" got lost on the East Front, sometimes even before Ike arrived in Europe

b) maybe, just maybe, German soldiers became MIA and never made it to the official Soviet POW registration: shoot at the spot, died of wounds, died on their way to the GUPVI-registration or simply became KIA during fight and dumped by second echolon units into mass graves (the most probable case). The Russkies weren't that eager to positively identiy any dead german soldier they found on their advance. Not even a birch cross. It is said that this might happen in war.


The really bad thing in all this is, that Bacque knew all this, but had chosen to forget it. He really had to put much effort into snipping qoutes (...) to pervert them.


But maybe Bacque is really right and the bad Russkies never counted m 1.4-1.7 of their POWs, but hid 'em, transported 'em to the even worse Ike-monster, who killed 'em secretly without anybody reckogning. And the bodies were either thrown into the ocean or used for C-rats.

Cheers,

[ 31. January 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Quick sourcework reveals...

http://serendipity.magnet.ch/hr/bacque01.htm

http://www.corax.org/revisionism/index.html

The I.H.R. as the only cited source for more information?

Hmmm....

[ 31. January 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

 

Andy:
Thanks much for the input. Bacque does throw a lot of numbers around and places an enormous amount of emphasis on the two reports you mentioned. But, was it true that the German prisoners were maintained in open lots, with no barracks for about a year? And fed on less than 1,000 calories a day with no medical attention?
If his descriptions of the living conditions were true, then, it's hard to believe how anyone could have survived such treatment.

 

I have not read the book, but I would think after all of these years someone on the German or American side would have brought up the losses at the camps,or dug up the bodies. It would be hard to completely dispose of 800,000 bodies and keep that many ex-service men quiet about it for decades.

Also the 1000 cal. a day diet was probably more than what they were getting before they surrendered and alot more than they got from the Russians. I read a book about a German artillery officer who spent 10 years in Russia after the war and and he tells about the soup they got in which he always got a cow's eye in his bowl of soup along with some hair and other yummies.

 

Im currently reading it between two other books. It has been a good and interesting read so far and I dont see anything out of line about it. It has held my interest quite easily.

My problem is--is that im always reading 2-3 books at the same time--so it takes forever to formulate an opinion--unless it is THAT good from the start.

Im also reading "The Iron Time" and THIS IS an excellent book. Its also VERY expensive-- and costs about $130.00 I believe.

 

Actually I have no info on rations for German POWs in U.S.camps, but the 1945 calories level in f.ex. Paris was 1,550 per day.

It is correct that the situation of the POWs in April/May 1945 was disastrous: The infamous "Rheinwiesen"-camps are the most mentioned (though also most extreme) examples of the almost complete breakdown of the POW-camp-system. This is no surprise: on May 7, millions of soldiers became POWs during one day! This caused much havoc, and POWs had to camp on the ground, eat grass etc. in the early months...not all, but still many.

Consequentely, a maximum of 56,000 German POWs died in U.S. captivity. Fortunately, the mild weather conditions (spring and summer), the widespread ignoration of some harsh JCS 1067-orders out of prctical reasons, huge numbers of early dismissals (hitleryouth and old men) and last not least U.S. efforts to change the inhuman situation helped to limit the mortality rate to 2% in total.

Cheers,

 

I have to confess that I have also read the "Hitler diaries" - also interesting.

But thankfully I didn't pay a cent for that.

Cheers,

 

I haven't read it but--please tell more on that book--I take it--you didn't care much for it?
Best regards--Carl.

 

Andy: I'm going to have to read this a lot more carefully, now. Bacque seems to have done quite a bit of research on this and he cites sources all over the place.

 

I think the base Mr Bacque is building his story on is not very solid if he counts the dead Germans in "Ike´s" camps by taking the missing Germans number, and takes out the number of dead Germans in Russian camps and that´s it. As well one would think there were more stories of piled dead Germans around. But anyway he has managed to sell a Zillion books, I see...

But Ike´s decision to take the POW´s rights from the German soldiers is a serious question, I think. Not very human in any way!

PS CrazyD. I do think that it is Mr Bacque giving his view whatever the site.Can´t help that.

 

Famine is never human. Of course he could take the food, give it to the POWs to the disadvantage of the European poulation. Ther was not enough food for all, as the Paris ccalories show.

Cheers,

 

OK, but just why all this trouble for DEF instead of POW, if it could have been explained with saying we cannot feed everyone...?

More questions:

Was the German soldiers denied the right to send and receive letters, receive Red Cross packages after the DEF decision? / The German civilian packages propably were nonexistent due to hunger.

Why wasn´t Red Cross allowed to visit the camps?

Were German DEFs donated to France for slave labor? How many?


http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList418/E99E93CB5C015C9CC1256B66005B2520

On the victorious side, public opinion held that the Germans were only getting what they deserved, and the ICRC found itself virtually alone in interceding on their behalf. The ICRC made approaches to the authorities of the four occupation zones and, in the autumn of 1945, it received authorization to send both relief and delegates into the French and British zones. On 4 February 1946, the ICRC was allowed to send relief into the American zone, and on 13 April 1946 it obtained permission to extend this activity to the Soviet zone. The quantities received by the ICRC for these captives remained very small, however. During their visits, the delegates observed that German prisoners of war were often detained in appalling conditions. They drew the attention of the authorities to this fact, and gradually succeeded in getting some improvements made.

----------------

http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/france/france.html

PARIS, October 11, 1945

General of the Army JUIN
Chief of the Office of General Staff of the National Defense

To

General JOHN T. LEWIS,
Head of the USFET Mission in France

It is unfortunately true that large numbers of prisoners of war presently in French hands are in a state of health such that they are unable to work. This situation is in particular the consequence of the conditions in which the prisoners were found when they were transferred by the American authorities to the French authorities. It has been made the subject of numerous communications, written as well as oral, between the French and American services with competence in the matter.

I take only as one example the recent transfer of 166,000 prisoners of war which were transferred to France when the French zone of occupation was enlarged. Two-thirds of those prisoners of war were incapable of working as a consequence of their very deficient physical state.

I am extracting the following lines from a report dated August 5, 1945, addressed to the Supreme General Commander of the French troupes of occupation:


“Certain individuals (more than a hundred) which were shown to me at the HECHSTEIN camp even now present such a malnourished physical appearance as to make them resemble the most emaciated internees from BUCHENWALD and from DACHAU. The prisoners are living in makeshift shelters, sometimes even in holes dug in the ground. The prisoners’ only clothing is in bad shape and their allocation of blankets is no more than one per head.”

– The French Government has not heretofore been concerned with trying to find out which authorities are burdened with the responsibility for the situation which it has to face up to: it is confining itself to putting into effect the means of remedying that situation.

In fact, the German prisoners now receive the same rations as the French population. As a result, we have been able to determine a perceptible improvement in the physical condition of the prisoners since they were delivered into French hands. Moreover, the International Red Cross has the means to carry out the necessary verification. The issue of provisioning can therefore be considered as basically resolved by the measures referred to in the preceding paragraph, which the French Government has just decided to apply. It goes without saying that any assistance, over and above that, which the American authorities might provide in this regard would further ameliorate the situation

Our humane concerns and the desire not to burden the French economy with prisoners who are sick or incapable of working have led us to accelerate to the maximum their return to Germany. A plan of evacuation, which is to be carried out within the briefest delay, and in any case before the arrival of hard winter, provides for the total repatriation of all unemployables who are found in our hands. The French Government is pleased to give a positive response to the proposal by which the American authorities have decided to immediately retake the burden for these unemployables.

I am not in a position to immediately indicate to you with precision the numbers which will be effected by this transfer. Moreover, it seems to me premature to count on the number of 200,000 referred to in your communication of October1.

The French Government is astonished at the information contained in your communication of September 29, according to which all transfers of German prisoners to France would be here and now suspended

..agreement signed on September 24 provides that the American authorities will not only continue, in accordance with their undertaking, to deliver the 600,000 men who remain to be transferred into French hands but will moreover take all necessary measures to endeavor to deliver us an additional 500,000. Under these circumstances, the French Government requests that the General commanding the USFET in FRANCE, taking into account the preceding information, the provisions of the Franco-American agreement of September 24, and the higher requirements of French reconstruction, would please reconsider that decision, to which the French government can in no way subscribe.

Signed: JUIN


A true copy: Lt-Colonel MORAILLON

Head of the 4th Section

Signed: MORAILLON

http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/france/documents/letter.html