Berlin - the final battles 26.4. - 3.5.1945

Hi,

I figured it's time to start a new thread on the final battles 26.4. - 3.5.1945 in Berlin. I have spent (wasted) a quite a bit of my freetime (my wife's mad) going through my own limited archives, discussions, notes, reread books, net search, some discussions with my former colleagues in armor troops etc...To put this all in the nutshell, I believe I got fairly satisfactory picture on the final battles during the timeperiod of 26.4. - 3.5.1945 (I maybe wrong as well naturally, since nothing's sure in life, except death, once we're born), but nonetheless, I still need go through some material in depth; checking, double-checking, triple-checking, cross-checking and so on, after all I'm just an history hobbist not an historian.


Anyway, let's concentrate on the sSS Pz Abt 503, the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division, the 33rd SS-Freiwilligen (Volunteer) Gren Division Charlemagne, Kampfgruppe Mohnke, the Pz Division Müncheberg, the 9th Parachute Division, the 18th Pz Gren Division and the 20th Pz Gren Division in this thread, the slight weight perhaps being on the Waffen SS troops.


All constructive beneficial input is greatly appreciated! Let's try to form a solid and reasonable accurate account of the given time period together.


Something to start with.


The total number of German armor as of the 26th April 1945 was 40 tanks (Panzer) and aussault guns (AGs)/Self Propelled Guns (SP guns) left within the sSS Pz Abt 503, the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division, the 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne, the Pz Division Müncheberg, the 9th Parachute Division, the 18th Pz Gren Division and the 20th Pz Gren Division.

When on the 23rd of April, General Helmuth Weidling, the commander of the LVI Panzer Corps was appointed to take the command of the defence of the Reich capital, Berlin, he had only 60 tanks (Panzer) and aussault guns (AGs)/Self Propelled Guns (SP guns) left within the sSS Pz Abt 503, the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division, the 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne, the Pz Division Müncheberg, the 9th Parachute Division, the 18th Pz Gren Division and the 20th Pz Gren Division for the defence of Berlin.

Therefore, just in less than four days (23.4.-26.4.1945), Germans had lost over 30% of the armor available (20 tanks and AGs lost). As we all well know, the bulk of the armor belonged to the Pz Division Müncheberg, the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division (SS Pz Abt 11 "Hermann von Salza") and sSS Pz Abt 503.

On the 25th of April Brigadeführer Dr. Krukenberg was appointed by the General Weidling to take over the command of the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division from Brigadeführer Ziegler (who was then sacked) and also to take over the defence sector C. The very next day, on the 26th of April, Krukenberg was given the command of the defence sector Z, city center (Z = Zentrum = Zitadelle, Innenstadt von Berlin) by General Weidling and General Krebs. A few days later, on the 29th of April, Krukenberg was given the command of all Waffen SS troops in Berlin and hence Brigadeführer Mohnke took command over the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland besides the KG Mohnke. In practice, Hauptsturmführer Fenet took command of the 33rd SS Gren Division Charlemagne on the 25th of April, when Krukenberg took command of Nordland Div. General Weidling remained overall commander of all troops of the defence of the Berlin to the bitter end.


Let's break down those figures on the 26th of April onwards.


First the sSS Pz Abt 503:

Total of six (6) Köningstigers left for the final battle in the inside district of Berlin, government quarter, the citadel (Zitadelle = Z). Köningstiger Kommandanten: 1. Hauptscharführer Körner, 2. Unterscharführer Diers with Tiger II number 314, 3. Unterscharführer Turk with Tiger II number 100, 4. Oberscharführer Stolze, 5. Untersturmführer Schäfer and 6. Obersturmführer Lippert.


The scores of sSS Pz Abt 503; Köningstigers’ confirmed knock outs i.e. usually burned down tanks/SP-guns during 26.4. – 2.5.1945 by date:


26.4.1945: Diers takes the command of Köningstiger #314 back, when interim commander of Tiger II #314 Ustuf. Gast (SS Pz Div Totenkopf) is wounded.

All six Köningstigers operate with the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division and the 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne. The sSS Pz Abt 503 has been subordinated to the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division. Both the 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne and the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division are under command of Brig.Fhr. Krukenberg.

The 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 52 tanks/SP-guns.


27.4.1945: Hscha. Körner knocks out one T-34/85 (T-34/85 confirmed) and Ustuf. Schäfer knocks out one T-34/85 (T-34/85 confirmed) on Kurfürstenstrasse and at Halensee station. Körner and Schäfer probably knocked out more than confirmed ones.

The 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 84 tanks/SP-guns.


28.4.1945: Attack at Luisenstadt is pushed back. The 33rd SS-Freiwilligen Gren Division Charlemagne is supported by one Köningstiger. No confirmed data on knocked out tanks, except the 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 75 tanks/SP-guns.


29.4.1945: Uscha. Diers (Köningstiger #314) knocks out one JS-2 and three T-34/85s (JS-2 and 3 T-34/85s confirmed) and Uscha. Turk (Köningstiger #100) knocks out three plus T-34/85s (3 T-34/85s confirmed) at Potsdamer Platz in the direction of Anhalter station.

Uscha. Bender is wounded and replaced by Uscha. Semik. Hscha. Körner, Ustuf. Schäfer, Ustuf. Bromann (in absentia) and Stubaf. Herzig are decorated with RKs by Brig.Fhr. Mohnke.

The 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 75 tanks/SP-guns.


30.4.1945: Uscha. Diers (Köningstiger #314) knocks out thirty T-34/85s (30 T-34/85s confirmed) at the Reichstag and Uscha. Semik knocks out one T-34/85 (T-34/85 confirmed) at Halensee station. Uscha. Semik is wounded and replaced by Oscha. Stolze. Uscha. Turk’s Köningstiger #100 is damaged at Potsdamer Platz, recovered and repaired within 3 hours.

The 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 81 tanks/SP-guns.


1.5.1945: Oscha. Stolze knocks out five T-34/85s (5 T-34/85s confirmed) at Halensee station and Ustuf. Schäfer knocks out four T-34/85s (4 T-34/85s confirmed) on Friedrichstrasse in the front of Weidendammer Bridge. Uscha. Turk’s Köningstiger #100 out of ammo and petrol with severe damage is abandoned at Potsdamer Platz.

The 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 84 tanks/SP-guns.


2.5.1945: Ustuf. Schäfer knocks out one JS-2 (JS-2 confirmed) near Schulenburger Bridge and Hscha. Körner knocks out one JS-2 and two ISU-122s (JS-2 and 2 ISU-122s confirmed) on Reichstrasse.

The remaining five Köningstigers are lost during the break through attempts. Ustuf. Schäfer’s Köningstiger is destroyed by the captured 8.8cm AA gun. Ostuf. Lippert’s Köningstiger is destroyed by its crew. Hscha. Körner’s and Oscha. Stolze’s Köningstigers are abandoned. Uscha. Diers (Köningstiger #314) is destroyed by its crew.

Thus all the six Köningstigers of the sSS Pz Abt. 503 were lost in Berlin battles.

The 1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 25 tanks/SP-guns.


Total confirmed score (26.4. – 2.5.1945):

Köningstiger #314 under command of Uscha. Diers knocked out one JS-2 + thirtythree T-34/85s.

Köningstiger under command of Hscha. Körner knocked out one JS-2 + two ISU-122s + one T-34/85.

Köningstiger under command of Ustuf. Schäfer knocked out one JS-2 + five T-34/85s.

Köningstiger under command of Uscha. Semik knocked out one T-34/85 and under command of Oscha. Stolze five T-34/85s.

Köningstiger #100 under command of Uscha. Turk knocked out three T-34/85s.


Grand Total confirmed score of sSS Pz Abt 503 (26.4. – 2.5.1945): Three JS-2s, two ISU-122s, fortyeight T-34/85s = 53 tanks/SP guns.

Unconfirmed score quite likely adds some 25 - 50 tanks/SP guns for sSS Pz Abt 503. E.g. Ostuf. Lippert's claims or scores cannot be found. We also well know that on the 2nd May Oscha Stolze and Ostuf Lippert changed the command of their Köningstigers btw themselves.

Let's stick with confirmed score of 53 tanks/SP guns; the confirmed score already gives a quite good kill ratio of 8.8:1 for sSS Pz Abt 503 for the time period of 26.4. – 2.5.1945.


The sSS Pz Abt 503 commander Sturmbannführer Herzig had his HQ in Reich Air Ministry (Reich Luftfahrtministerium).


Note on Oscha. Stolze's Köningstiger: On April 26th this Tiger's commander was Unterscharführer Bender, who got wounded on April 29th. Bender was then replaced as a commander by Unterscharführer Semik, who in turn got wounded on the very next day on 30th April. Thus on 30th April Oscha. Stolze took command of this particular Köningstiger. Later on the 2nd May Oscha. Stolze and Ostuf. Lippert changed their Köningstigers; i.e. Ostuf. Lippert took command of Oscha. Stolze's Köningstiger and vice versa.

Note on Uscha. Diers's Köningstiger #314: Uscha. Diers with his Köningstiger took part in the famous break out attempt at the Weidendammer Bridge on the early morning of 2nd May around 00:15. Diers (and Gast) and his crew knocked out (i.e. set on fire, confirmed knock outs) 39 tanks in Berlin battles only (22.4. - 2.5.1945), quite likely the total was more than that in Berlin. Diers Köningstiger was destroyed by its crew.

Note on Hscha. Körner's and Oscha. Stolze's Köningstigers: Hscha. Körner and Oscha. Stolze tried to break out of Berlin with their Köningstigers during the dawn of May the 2nd at the Spandau Bridge. Körner’s and Stolze’s Köningstigers were abandoned.

Note on Ostuf. Lippert's and Ustuf. Schäfer's Köningstigers: Ostuf. Lippert and Ustuf. Schäfer with their Köningstigers took part in a break out attempt at the Schulenburger Bridge on the 2nd May led by Generalmajor Mummert. Schäfer’s Köningstiger was destroyed by the captured 8.8cm AA gun. Lippert’s Köningstiger was destroyed by its crew.

Note on Uscha. Turk's Köningtiger #100: Uscha. Turk abandoned his Köningstiger on 1st May due to lack of ammo and petrol. Turk took the command of the the 11th SS Pz Gren Nordland Division's abandoned SPW 251/7 at the Reichchancellary, a pioneer SPW (Nordland had one 250 "Neu", one 251/7 and two Soviet SPWs left at the time being in the more or less running condition). Turk and his crew had to abandon the 251/7 while running into a shell crater during fast drive in the direction of the Weidendammer Bridge; Turk was in his way to join Diers in a break out attempt at the Weidendammer Bridge.

The sSS Pz Abt 503 commander Sturmbannführer Herzig was able to cross the Elbe River and fell into American captivity.

All six Köningstigers of the sSS Pz Abt. 503 were thus lost in Berlin battles. These were the very last Köningstigers of sSS Pz Abt. 503.


Note: On the 27th of April the majority of Marshal Konev's 1st Ukrainian Front's troops were pulled out of Berlin and by the 28th of April only few remnants of the 1st Ukrainian Front were still in Berlin.


Enjoy !


All the best,

AJJ

To be continued...

 

I would be very interested in how these kill 'claims' became 'confirmed'. I have never been able to find out how this was done. If such a confirmation process existed why have a established 50% reduction to get closer to reality?
The total number of German tanks/Stug available across the whole Eastern Front in mid April 1945 was 2400 with a further 1600 'in repair'

 

Hi m kenny,

No offence meant, but I have hard time of understanding your post, because a) it’s irrelevant to the topic in hand and b) it doesn’t really contribute anything constructive and beneficial to the topic in question.

As for the victory claims and confirmed victories, how were allied & axis pilots, submarine commanders + their crews, tank commanders + their crews, snipers etc…claims confirmed...just think a bit!

I wonder how, how I wonder, wonder I how, how I wonder, I wonder how…go figure – military service experience might have helped a bit.

Maybe you should make a new separate thread under title “Claims and confirmation process” or something like that …

… or maybe not, since you already seem to know "all the answers in reality", don’t bother.

Umm, so what? Again, that’s irrelevant and not contributing. The numbers for armor "available" late in the war are relatively easy to come by. It doesn’t tell how many were operationally used by units in reality in battles or in operations. One idea here is numbers of armor and the units that used them in reality during the final battles of Berlin.

But you can of course make a new separate thread under title e.g. “Allied and Axis production figures of armor during 1939-1945 and availability on yearly basis”


Now, let’s keep this thread on the topic with contributing and beneficial comments, thanks.

All the best,

AJJ

 

There is no greater area of dissent than German tank kill claims. You are bulding a scenario where you are taking on trust unverified crew claims and assuming they are confirmed kills. Experience has shown me that these German claims are far from confirmed and I simply asked you how you know they were confirmed. If you do not know say so and stop claiming they are confirmed.

The Germans routinely applied a 50% reduction to all their tank kill claims because they knew (unlike some) that theses claims often exceded reality. Perhaps you could explain how the kills were confirmed for me because no amount of thinking shows me the answer

I think it is highly relevant. You are using unverified tank kill claims. This 'kill ratio' is central to your scenario. I am pointing out your data is faulty. Perhaps a couple of sources would help us.
I remember your previous claim that Will Fey destroyed 15 Shermans in one action on 7/8/44. You never replied when I pointed out how inflated this and his other claims were when compared to reality.

Are they? Perhaps you could supply me with this 'easy to come by' source?

Sorry I rained on your parade but you have failed to support your initial claims with anything approaching hard data.

 

The number of 2400 is those tanks/Stug with Units on The Eastern Front. A further 1600 were in repair Thus despite your fears there were 2400 operational with Units (14/4/45). A further 600 were 'en route' to the front.
In total then a theoretical 4600 tanks/Stug on the Eastern Front. This total does not include the non-stug SP Artillery types also in service.

 

Hi m kenny or should I say Michael???,

No offence meant, but obviously you have serious problems with yourself, you make blunt statements without having a clue on what you’re talking about, try to pick up fight, use same old statements over and over again like broken record on different forums multiple times for years.

An example:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...0&postorder=asc&highlight=georg+diers&start=0


Yes, m Kenny/Michael, it’s easy to discover your little game your play around, I bet a good number of people know that on this forum too.

You seem to be a true expert on German tank kills by making statements like above, right. Well, good for you, since then you’re truly better than quite a number of historians and actual tank commanders. As an expert you must have sources for statements like that. And yet you fail to understand and know the process of victory claims and confirmation. Sorry, m Kenny/Michael, every serviceman/woman knows the claim/confirmation process, but you don’t seem to know. But, hey, you’re the expert !!!

No, m Kenny/Michael, I’m not building any scenario/scenarios, nor claiming anything, just merely quoting historians, archives and so on, that should be quite clear for everyone to understand easily, but not for you – which makes me wonder about your reading comprehension and understanding once again.

Haven’t you really learnt anything from surfing around different WWII forums and playing the same record over and over for years?

Oh, I almost forgot it, you’re the expert with a lot of experience, right, so we need humble in the front of your EXPERIENCE; experience on what?????

Where did you serve then and when? Honestly, I don’t think you have ever served in any armed forces whatsoever, if you had, you would have know lots of things without even asking and you wouldn't make statements and claims you’re making all over.


Furthermore, you didn’t ask sources, you asked how, which means process – you can’t even make a difference btw process and source – oh, boy, that tells pretty much about your expertise too. I didn’t even bother to explain the process, since I already knew you don’t have a clue on them. Start studying from e.g. rules of engagement first.

As for sources of majority of data, that has been discussed already earlier in another thread, that should have been obvious too – a long list of books for starters, but yet again you fail to see and understand; hmmm not good for an expert, you claim to be.

As you’re the self-claimed expert, you can easily provide us all the data which says that

And since you’re the expert and you make the claims and statements like the one above, perhaps you can clarify and proof your claims and statements, again easily!

No, you’re not pointing out anything, except claiming that you’re expert, all the above shows that clearly.

I have never said/claimed that what you said:

Well, as said already above, obviously you got a serious problem making blunt statements without having a clue on what you’re talking about, try to pick up fight, use same old statements over and over and so on.

Here’s the link to the discussion so everyone can see

http://www.ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/23751-armor-berlin-3.html

Additionally here’s the discussion pasted:

November 21st, 2008, 08:34 PM
m kenny Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern England
Posts: 324
Salute!: 0
Saluted 7 Times in 6 Posts
Re: Armor in Berlin​

Will Fey's account of his Normany 'kills' is frankly unbelievable. He claims 88 kills in the text and 70 in the diary. Compare this to Schneiders claim of 227 for the ENTIRE Unit! His claim of 15 Shermans on 7th August is demonstrably fiction. Clearly he is not a reliable source.

Overclaiming was rife and officialy recognised by the 50% discount applied to all claims when they were collated.​

NT='Tahoma','sans-serif']November 22nd, 2008, 11:09 AM [/font]

AJJ Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Salute!: 0
Saluted 5 Times in 3 Posts
Re: Armor in Berlin​

Hi m Kenny,


I don't know Will Fey's total victories nor his victories in Normany well enough. I haven't cross checked them, however the little I know, Fey did knock out a lot of tanks/SP guns for sure and AFIAK he's well respected armor commander among armor commanders regardless of nationality.

All authors of any books make minor figure errors that's for certain. Maybe someone here knows Fey's victories for sure; i.e. somebody who has done research and cross checking on the matter.​

Sorry, I couldn't help more, but I do hope this helped a bit.

AJJ




m kenny Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern England
Posts: 324
Salute!: 0
Saluted 7 Times in 6 Posts

Re: Armor in Berlin

Minor?

Claiming 15 Shermans in an action that never happened?
Claiming you destroyed 80+ tanks when the whole unit (of 45 Tigers) claimed only 227?




m Kenny/Michael, again you mix things badly, you seem to be totally confused and lost. Just trying to be polite I answered you as can be fairly easily seen and you don’t comprehend at all, what’s been said, instead you’re trying to start pissing content for what?

Man, you’re so far out of reality.

It seems that you have personal problem with Will Fey too. You should nonetheless show some respect to the veteran like Fey as well as to all veterans regardless of the nationality. Fey did have a colorful career and he was a true tank/panzer expert; not a self made expert like you, m Kenny/Michael.


Fey also accomplished a lot after WWII while the Bundeswehr Panzer troops were established. Sadly Fey has passed away long time ago, in 1999 IIRC, and thus Fey cannot defend himself. Nevertheless, you comments on Fey really shown how totally mixed you are, your arrogant attitude and the total lack of respect for veterans!

As the EXPERT, you should know that many books on WWII have overall production and delivery lists. Why even bother to ask, when you’re such an expert, you should know.

Anuway, here’s one easy shortcut for you, the expert:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer-statistics.htm#price​

No, again you miss the point, you didn’t ruin anything, since there isn’t such a thing like my parade here – my parades have been elsewhere during my humble +20 yrs of service, not in the net – but you ruined pretty much yourself; you failed badly, once again, and still you don’t even get it.

m Kenny/Michael, it might be useful for you to check this link; well pointed out by FalkeEins:​

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=2794&highlight=panzer++berlin​

But of course, since you’re the expert, m Kenny/Michael, and according to your expert statements and claims all these people on the panzer-archiv.de forum are also wrong.​

In the end, m Kenny/Michael or whoever you are, your kind of very confused people are one of the very reasons why some truly and very knowable people won’t ever register themselves to the discussion forums like this. Sadly so, since that’s a true loss for everyone, as they would be able to share great amount of information. They aren’t simple interested in pissing contests with confused people like you.​

Now, let’s try to keep this thread on the topic with contributing and beneficial comments, without m Kenny/Michael’s “expert statements and claims”, thanks.​

No offence meant to anyone, but I do feel very sad – makes me wonder do I really want to share my info and resources.​

All the best,​

AJJ, a simple ex-soldier, only a history hobbyist, not an expert on history​

 

Whatever suits you. My name is my own. I never use any other ID and I stand 100% behind everything I say

You have claimed that you have 'confirmed' kill claims for the tanks in question. I asked you for sight of this confirmation. You have yet to provide the evidence of confirmation, Why?

It is a very simple game. Every time I see someone make these multiple kill claims I ask them how they know they are correct. To date (and you are no exception) no one has supplied the slightest scrap of evidence they are anything other than raw crew claims.

Example of one such historian please?

Perhaps you may be so good as to explain how these kills were confirmed?
I have asked you before and yet other than repeating that it is 'obvious' you obviously avoid giving the details!

Which Historians?
Which Archives?
Name the 'so on's'

Wonder all you want. Just stop saying the kills are confirmed without any evidence of same.

I have learned that there are a lot of fan-boys out there who simply live in a dream world.

That must be where I am going wrong. I have to read up and research when your good self probably 'know lots of things without even asking'.

I have a problem with anyone who claims they destroyed 15 Shermans of a Unit which wasn't even in action that day. I understand you fan-boy mentality leads you to accept every German claim as gospel. My handicap was that I actualy looked at the British accounts and found out Fey was wrong. I even know the name of the man who provided Will Fey with a list of British Units in the area at the time he claimed his 15 fantasy Shermans. This same man (mentioned in the book itself) has since distanced himself from Fey and his absurd claim to have destroyed 80+ Allied tanks in Normandy.

I gave you some information on late war German tank strengths. You replied that "The numbers for armor "available" late in the war are relatively easy to come by"
As it happens this late war information is extremely scarce and patchy. Give me the titles of the 'many books on WWII ' that have this information instead of waffling on about books in general.

I am well aquainted with PA and personaly know a number of the senior posters there.

I am Michael Kenny. That is all I ever will be and I repeat, I never hide behind an alias.


Now that is out of the way can you provide the evidence that leads you to state the Berlin killls were confirmed?

 

Hmmmmm...Instead of attacking m kenney or implying he is somebody you know why not provide the sources of your infomation and statistics? Prove him wrong. It should be pretty simple to do if you have the sources. Books,Authors and page #s, Ect . Like other sites some here would love to know what the sources are so as to read more. Its a simple question he asked " how these kill 'claims' became 'confirmed'" ?

 

Here is a classic example of double standards applied to the 'losses'

So it seems we have 81 destroyed Soviet tanks and no TII losses and an unsourced claim that TII's destoyed 31 T34's............but wait, what is this:

"Turk’s Köningstiger #100 is damaged at Potsdamer Platz, recovered and repaired within 3 hours"

Ah, so we have 1 damaged TII.
Hang on, lets look at the Soviet totals:
"1st Belorussian Front’s enemy caused losses for the day; 81 tanks/SP-guns"
On further examination it says that of this 81 losses 33 were only damaged!
Surely then it should be 48 enemy caused losses?
If a damaged TII is to be ignored then why not the damaged Soviet tanks?

Why is it German damaged tanks are ignored and Soviet ones included?
It may be only one (in this case) but it is clearly a distortion.

Panzerfaust losses were running at 20-30% of the totals so the 80 Soviet losses would give us 56-64 possible AP hits so again we have a claim that all the artillery/tanks/stug/Pantherturm in the whole of Berlin only got the same number of Soviet tanks as 1 Tiger!
Even adding in 3 GTA losses of 100 tanks (24/4/45-2/5/45) wont dent the %'s

 

Hmm, seems to make sense...

 

Good post m Kenny. It actually makes a lot of sense now that you mention it.
I think the only way to have confirmed kills is after the battle analysis. Za some time ago presented us with a list containing soviet tank losses
in 42 or 43. This process must've been applied (this is somewhat speculation but I believe it's the more accurate explanation). After examining the field wrecks they'd see how many tanks were destroyed and compare to the number and position of the tanks they (the Germans) had.
After this happens, it was a matter of balancing. Like in air combat, I believe that tankers claiming the same kills wasn't all that uncommon. Especially in Urban Combat with rubble everywhere.
Still just my thoughts on how that list was done. I think once the Russian archives are fully released we'll know much more. Especially when someone bothers to analyse at the Russian TOEs (a statistical analysis if you will ).



Cheers...

 

I doubt it - we'll have exactly the same scenario as currently exists with the leading Eastern Front German air aces. Hartmann's '352' kills -a good sixty of which were never 'officially' confirmed, not even by the Luftwaffe claims office itself, which ceased to function in Jan/Feb 45- have shrunk to less than one hundred according to the latest Russian research.

AJJ, I too have to agree 100% with M Kenny. There is no point in quoting 'confirmed' kills for the late war period ..none whatsoever... and even less point in quoting Fey & Schneider for this period ...(having done some research into s.Pz.Abt 503 in Normandy, Schneider doesn't even have his figures right here..)

 

Hi Michael,

quote: Whatever suits you. My name is my own. I never use any other ID and I stand 100% behind everything I say


Mine is AJJ, no false IDs. Well, Michael, no offence meant, but you’re the armchair expert, so you really can’t stand 100% behind of anything, soldiers stand, don’t insult them, armchair experts sit.


quote: You have claimed that you have 'confirmed' kill claims for the tanks in question. I asked you for sight of this confirmation. You have yet to provide the evidence of confirmation, Why?


Hmm, Michael, you claimed yourself to be an expert, experts do know facts and easily find answers, don’t they? Why bother me, non-expert, since you already claim to know the facts.

And no, I haven’t claimed any kills in WWII, I wasn’t fighting in WWII at all (wasn’t even born yet), hence I wasn't able to make victory claims during it. Victory claim is military term, most cases personal, but can be sometimes team/crew.


Michael, you have claimed for instance:

Quote: There is no greater area of dissent than German tank kill claims.


Then again you claimed:

Quote: If such a confirmation process existed why have a established 50% reduction to get closer to reality?


You haven’t yourself provided a single source that supports you statements and claims, how come? You ought to be an expert, right. Where’re your sources to back your statements?


Then you also said:

Quote: I have never been able to find out how this was done.


Hmm, that pretty much contradicts you claims being expert. As said earlier, if you had done any military service, you would know how it’s done.

But then you say:

Quote: Experience has shown me that these German claims are far from confirmed and I simply asked you how you know they were confirmed.


Whoa, now, you again claim to an expert. Experience on what???? Experience on being an armchair expert on armored warfare.


Quote: It is a very simple game. Every time I see someone make these multiple kill claims I ask them how they know they are correct. To date (and you are no exception) no one has supplied the slightest scrap of evidence they are anything other than raw crew claims.

Yes, I have noticed your little armchair “games”, it’s not too hard to see. But, you fail to comprehend the point, hence true experts aren’t willing to share or give you data, even if they have data; - one of the very reasons why some truly and very knowable people won’t ever register themselves to the discussion forums like this. Sadly so, since that’s a true loss for everyone, as they would be able to share great amount of information. They aren’t simple interested in pissing contests, and neither am I.


Quote: Example of one such historian please?

Based on your statements and claims you made e.g. 50% reduction and so on above, the list is very, very long, but obviously you fail to recognize that as well. Obviously you claim to be better than e.g. any of these historians:

Ramm, Gerald, Ticke, Wilhelm, McDonald, Charles , Münch, Karlheinz, Maier, Georg, Hinze, Rolf, Kumm, Otto, Beevor, Anthony, Ullrich, Karl, Schadewitz, Michael, Moller, Nicole, Pruett, Michael, Le Tissier, Tony, Jentz, Thomas L., Doyle, Hilary Louis, Bauer, Frank, Pfundt, Karen, Burkert, Hans-Norbert, and Matussek, Klaus, Rocolle, Pierre, Tully, Andrew, Shirer, William L., Fey, Will, Shultz-Naumann, Joachim, Weidling, General Helmuth, Weidinger, Otto, Restayn, Jean, Fleischer, Heinz, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 Veteran’s Association, Strassner, Peter, Berger, Florian, Trojca, Waldemar, Später, Helmut, Haasler, Timm, Agte, Patrick, Lehmann, Rudolf, Tiemann, Ralf, MacLean, French, Fischer, Thomas, Vuksic, Velimir, Kühn, Volkmar, Kleine, Egon, Ritgen, Helmut, Landwehr, Richard, Pallud, Jean Paul, Depuy, Paul, Cole, Hugh, and so on…

Got tired writing any more, but there’s many more…


Quote: Perhaps you may be so good as to explain how these kills were confirmed? I have asked you before and yet other than repeating that it is 'obvious' you obviously avoid giving the details!


As an expert, Michael, you should understand the process as I said already, but no, Michael, I won’t bother myself to teach about issues you wouldn’t have even a slightest idea. You don’t have any kind of formal military education whatsoever. You wouldn’t comprehend and understand fundamentals about strategy and tactics, even at the basic level. You haven’t gone through infantry, armor, ranger, recon, SF, NCO and officer schools, or any military school for that matter, you haven’t trained, been on the field or been in action. You haven’t fired recoilless rifles, tank guns, or whatsoever bigger caliber gun, you haven’t operated and commanded AFVs, IFVs and APCs etc…Teaching you even a bit, would be complete waste of time for me, I got better things to do.

All you have basically done is to surf around net playing an expert and maybe read a few books. Well, Michael that doesn’t make you a true expert, and if you truly fail to comprehend and recognize that fact, you’re truly confused fellow.

Military respect and expertise is earned by actions in the service, not by net games.

Btw, according to your expert opinion even this old list (many people still missing from it) is wrong. Perhaps you can provide your “updated expert list” that shouldn’t be too difficult for an expert as you claimed to be

– was it 50% reduction on victories, right?

TANK KILLERS

Contributors; Ron Klages, David C. Clarke, Erich Brown, Steve Eckardt, John S.

1.Kurt Knispel -168 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)
2.Otto Carius - 150+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)-Tiger I--Knight's Cross 5/4/44, Oak Leaves 7/27/44.
3.Johannes (Hans) Bolter-- 139 Kills (possibly 144) (sPzAbt. 502) Tigers- Knight's Cross 4/16/44, Oak Leaves 9/10/44.
4.Michael Wittman - 138 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 101 Liebstandarte)-Tiger I-Knight's Cross 1/14/44, Oak Leaves 1/14/44 with Swords, 6/25/44.
5.Hans Sandrock - 123 Kills (assorted AFV last unit HJ )
6.Paul Egger - 113 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 102)-Tigers- Knight's cross 4/28/45
7.Fritz Lang- 113 Kills (StuG. Abt. 232)
8.Arno Giesen - 111 Kills (Das Reich)
9.Oberfahnrich Rondorf-106 kills (sPzAbt. 503)-Tigers
10.Feldwebel Gaetner ( Gartner?)- 103 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)-Tigers
11.Karl Koener - 100+ Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)-Tigers-Knight's Cross 4/29/44.
12.Albert Kerscher - 100+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)-Tigers-Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
13.Balthazar (Bobby) Woll-100+ Kills, 81 as Gunner (sSS Pz. Abt. 101)-Knight's Cross-1/16/44.
14.Helmut Wendorff-84 Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt.101)-Tigers-Knight's Cross 2/12/44.
15.Ernst Barkmann-82+ Kills (Das Reich)-Panther-Knight's Cross 8/27/44.
16.Eric Litztke-76 Kills (sPzAbt. 509)--Tigers- Knight's Cross 10/20/44 17.Hermann Bix - 75+ Kills (4th Panzer Division)-Knight's Cross 3/22/45. 18.Hans Strippel - 70 Kills (4. / II/ PzAbt. 1, 1st Pz. Division)-Pz. IV-Knight's Cross 6/4/44.
19.Emil Seibold - 69 Kills (Das Reich)-Pz IV+ Captured T-34s
20.Wilhelm Knauth-68 Kills (sPzAbt. 505)-Tigers-Knight's Cross 11/14/43. 21.Hugo Primozic- 68 Kills (StuG Abt. 667)-Knight's Cross 9/25/42, Oak Leaves 1/25/43.
22.Karl Bromann - 66 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)-Tigers. [/font]
23.Josef William (Sepp) Brandner - 61 Kills (StuG Brigade 912)-Knight's Cross 1/17/45, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
24.Hans-Bobo von Rohr - 58 Kills (25 Pz. Abt., 7th Pz. Division)-Knight's Cross 11/15/44, Oak leaves 4/8/45 (Posthumously).
25.Karl Heinz Warmbrunn-- 57 Kills, 44 as gunner (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)-Tigers
26.Albert Ernst-55 Kills-(s.Pz. Jgr. Abt. 519)--Nashorn-Knight's Cross-2/7/44.
27.Richard Engelmann-54 Kills (StuG Abt. 912)-Knight's Cross 7/22/44.
28.Heinz Kling-51 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)--Tigers.
29.Johann Muller-50 Kills ((sPz. Abt. 502)--Tigers-Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
30.Josef Dallmeier-50 Kills (Fhr. PzJager Kp.1183)-Hetzer-Knight's Cross 4/3/45(?).
31.Walter Feibig-50+ Kills (StuG Brigade 301)
32.Heinz Kramer - 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)-Tigers-Knight's Cross 10/6/44.
33.Alfredo Carpaneto - 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)-Tigers-Knight's Cross 3/28/45.
34.Oberleutnant Mausberg - 50+ Kills (s.Pz. Abt. 505)-Tigers.
35.Wolfgang Hans Heimer Paul von Bostell-48 Kills-( Pz. Jgr. Kp. 1023, Pz. Jgr. Abt. 205)-Knight's Cross 9/2/44, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
36.Jurgen Brandt-47 Kills (sS.S.Abt. 101)-Tigers.
37.Heinz Deutsch - 44 Kills (Fsch. StuG Brigade 12) Knight's Cross 4/28/45.
38.Fritz Amling-42+ Kills (in 48 Hrs. with StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/5/42.
39.Heinz Scharf-40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 9/5/44.
40.Walter Oberloskamp - 40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross 5/15/43.
41.Fredrich Tadje-39 Kills (StuG Abt. 190) Knight's Cross 10/24/42.
42.Rudolf Roy-36 Kills (12 S.S. PanzerJager Abt. HJ)-JP IV-Knight's Cross 10/16/44.
43.Gottwald Stier-30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
44.Josef Trager - 30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
45.Richard Schram-30 Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/12/42.
46.Karl Pfreundtner-30 Kills (StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 9/18/42.
47.Karl Heinrich Banze - 24 Kills (13 on one day StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 5/27/42.
48.Felix Adamowitsch -23 Kills (in an 8 day period, StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 10/20/44.
49.Eugen Metzger-23 Kills (StuG Abt. 203) Knight's Cross 9/29/41.
50.Hauptmann Rade -23 Kills (StuG Abt. 244) 51.Heinrich Teriete - 22 Kills (in one engagement, sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 7/22/43.
52.Franz Staudegger-22+ Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt. 101) Knight's Cross 7/10/43.
53.Franz Kretshmer - 21 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 12/17/43
54.Horst Naumann-21 Kills (StuG Abt. 184) Knight's Cross 1/4/43
55.Klaus Wagner - 18 Kills (in two days, StuG Abt. 667)
56.Hermann Feldheim-16 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 654)
57.Heinrich Engel -15 Kills (StuG Abt. 259) Knight's Cross 11/7/43
58. Rudolf von Ribbentrop- 14 Kills (LSSAH+ HJ) Knight's Cross 7/20/43.
59. Wachtmeister Moj-12 Kills (StuG Abt. 190)
60. Siegfried Freyer- 11 Kills in one engagement (Pz. Abt. 24) Knight's Cross 7/23/43.
61. Alfred Reginitor-10 Kills (StuG Abt. 279) Knight's Cross (date unknown).


Quote:
Which Historians?
Which Archives?
Name the 'so on's'

As an “expert” you should know these by heart, but again here’s some friendly help for you to start with, so you can continue to play your games:


Books, in no particular order:


Tieke, Wilhelm, Korps Steiner Nordland/Nederland: Nachräge zu den Truppengeschichten; Das Ende zwischen Oder und Elbe – Der Kampf um Berlin 1945 and The Tragedy of the Faithful: 3rd SS Panzer Corps

Weidling, General Helmuth, Der Endkampf in Berlin

Rocolle, Pierre, Le sac de Berlin avril – mai 1945 and Götterdämmerung – La Prise de Berlin

Krivosheev, G. F., Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century

Ziemke, Earl, The Battle for Berlin

Rzheshevsky, O.A., The Race for Berlin

Mackintosh, Malcolm, Juggernaut: The Russian Forces, 1918 - 1996

Burkert, Hans-Norbert, and Matussek, Klaus, Zertört – Besiegt – Befreit. Kampf um Berlin bis zur Kapitulation, Berlin

Jentz, Thomas L., Doyle, Hilary Louis, Germany’s Tiger tanks – Tiger I & II: Combat tactics and Germany’s Tiger tanks series – Tigers at the front

Glantz, David, When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler and Art of war Symposium: From the Vistula to the Oder: Soviet Offensive Operations – October 1944 – March 1945

Kuby, Erich, The Russians and Berlin

Shultz-Naumann, Joachim, Die letzten dreissig Tage. Das Kriegstagebuch des OKW April-Mai 1945

Le Tissier, Tony, Zhukov at the Oder: The Decisive Battle for Berlin and With Our Backs to Berlin

Schneider, Wolfgang, Tigers in Combat Vol. II

Richard Landwehr, Charlemagne's Legionnaires: French Volunteers of the Waffen-SS, 1943-1945

Busse, Theodor, Die letzte Schacht der 9.Armee

Chuikov, Vasily, The End of the Third Reich

Bold, Gerhard, Die Letzten Tage der Reichskanzlei

Nevenkin, Kamen, Fire Brigades, The Panzer Divisions 1943-1945

Fey, Will, Panzerkampf im Bild. Panzerkommandanten berichten and Armor Battles of the Waffen-SS

White, Osmar, Conquerors' Road: An Eyewitness Report of Germany 1945

Sevruk, V., How Wars End: Eyewitness Accounts of the Fall of Berlin

Beevor, Anthony, Berlin The Downfall 1945

Dörnberg, Stefan, Befreiung 1945. Ein Augenzeugenbericht

Gall, Vladimir, Mein Weg nach Halle

Bauer, Frank, Pfundt, Karen, and Le Tissier, Tony, Der Todeskampf der Reichshauptstadt, Berlin

Guderian, Heinz, Panzer Leader

Hastings, Max, Armageddon: The Battle for Germany, 1944-1945

Konev, I.S., Year of Victory

Mabire, Jean, Mourir à Berlin and La Division Nordland

Rein, Heinz, Finale Berlin

Shtemenko, S.M., The Last Six Months

Erickson, John, The Road to Berlin: Continuing the History of Stalin's War with Germany


Archives etc… where lots of info is available, well all the info isn’t available for everyone, sorry - in no particular order

http://www.bundesarchiv.de/

http://www.history.army.mil/reference/records.htm

http://www.knox.army.mil/center/

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records/

http://www.apg.army.mil/apghome/sites/local/

http://www.archives.gov/research/ww2/

http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/world_war_ii.html

http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/worldwar2/default.htm

http://www.militaerhistorisches-museum.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/mhm

http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde

http://www.knor.ru/cgi-bin/base.pl?a=11911

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/schwPzAbtSS/sSSPzAbt103-R.htm

http://www.peachmountain.com/5Star/Tanks_Patton_Tank_Museum.aspx

http://www.tankmuseum.org/

http://www.tankmuseum.ru/

http://www.aaftankmuseum.com/

http://www.armeemuseum.ch/index.php?id=76

http://www.panssarimuseo.fi/

http://www.iwm.org.uk/

http://www.musee-des-blindes.asso.fr/

Analysis, reports, studies, work papers, thesis on tactics, on strategies, on battles, on operations, TOEs, notes and so on, lecture materials, operation manuals, booklets etc...of armored schools (mainly), infantry schools, SF units…these materials aren’t available publicly. But hey, why do I even bother list these, these are for soldiers only.

But then again where are your sources for your statements and claims?????

Which Historians?
Which Archives?
Name the 'so on's'



Quote: Wonder all you want. Just stop saying the kills are confirmed without any evidence of same.

I’m not wondering anymore, it’s very clear for me that you’re very confused.


Quote: I have learned that there are a lot of fan-boys out there who simply live in a dream world.

Yes, Michael as an armchair expert, you’re obviously and for sure one of the fan-boys yourself living in the fantasy dream world of yours.


Quote: That must be where I am going wrong. I have to read up and research when your good self probably 'know lots of things without even asking'.

Michael reading books and surfing around net doesn’t make you a true expert, and if you truly fail to comprehend and recognize that fact, you’re really badly confused fellow as pointed out above. You can spend all the time in the world surfing around net and reading all the books you lay your hand on, but still in the end you’ll always fail to understand fundamentals of armored warfare.

And yes, having served in any armed forces would indeed help you to know lots of things without even asking them again in the net plus you would have an access to the materials, you, Michael, now have only wet dreams. There’re a number of excellent armor/infantry/NCO/officer schools in all armed services around the world. All these schools have excellent materials and resources, which are not meant for civilians. These materials and resources won’t be published in the net for sure.

And you can be certain that I’m very friendly, when even I’m bothering telling you this.

A few good examples of some such schools:

Heeresamt - Startseite


https://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/

http://www.knox.army.mil/school/

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Armour_School/welcom_e.asp

http://www.mil.se/sv/I-Sverige/Skolor/Markstridsskolan-MSS/

http://www.armouredbrigade.fi/pskoulu.htm


You won’t learn armored warfare just by surfing in the net and reading books, sorry Michael that’s not the way it goes, ever. You’ll always remain as an “armchair expert” no matter what, that’s all there is.


Quote: I have a problem with anyone who claims they destroyed 15 Shermans of a Unit which wasn't even in action that day. I understand you fan-boy mentality leads you to accept every German claim as gospel. My handicap was that I actualy looked at the British accounts and found out Fey was wrong. I even know the name of the man who provided Will Fey with a list of British Units in the area at the time he claimed his 15 fantasy Shermans. This same man (mentioned in the book itself) has since distanced himself from Fey and his absurd claim to have destroyed 80+ Allied tanks in Normandy.

As for Will Fey, I respect him the very same way as I respect a number of other armor commanders and fellow soldiers from many different countries. And Fey did accomplish quite a lot remarkable things during his lifetime.

Michael, what have you really accomplished, except net-surfing, what are your qualifications and expertise?

You accomplishments as a “net surfer armor armchair expert” are far cry from Fey’s accomplishments and will always remain so.

As pointed out already, you comments show total lack of respect for veterans!

Who are you to criticize any veteran or any serviceman/woman for that matter? You haven’t even served your own country. Shame you.


Quote: I gave you some information on late war German tank strengths. You replied that "The numbers for armor "available" late in the war are relatively easy to come by"
As it happens this late war information is extremely scarce and patchy. Give me the titles of the 'many books on WWII ' that have this information instead of waffling on about books in general.

No, Michael, you didn't give me anything new, thanks for a good try, anyway.

But as an expert, you should know figures already, wouldn’t you?

I get very bored helping you all the time, but why don’t you try Jentz, Thomas L., Doyle, Hilary Louis, Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two; Miller, David, The Great Book of Tanks for starters in production figures…

As for shortcuts I already posted this:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer-statistics.htm#price

Here’s another easy link for you:

http://www.panzerworld.net/


Here’s also some figures for you to play around, be happy:

Verluste der 1, und 2. Weißrussischen-, sowie der 1. Ukrainischen-Front seit dem 16.4.1945 - 8.5.1945:

Gefallene/Vermisste/Verwundete 304.887 Mann

Panzer 2156

Geschütze, Granatwerfer usw. 1220

Flugzeuge 527


Stärke der russischen Kräfte im Kampf um Berlin:

1.593.700 Soldaten

3.827 Panzer

2.334 Selbstfahrlafetten

4.520 PAK

15.654 Feldgeschütze (über 76mm)

15.181 Granatwerfer (über 82mm)

3.255 Raketenwerfer

3.411 FLAK

95.383 Kraftfahrzeuge

6.696 Flugzeuge



Soviet Armor for the 1st belorussian front:

1.000 T-34

850 Su-76

400 JS-2

250 JSU-152/122

200 M4A2

200 Su-87/100

100 Su-57

Total: 3.000 armor; 1.600 tanks and 1.400 SP guns

Btw, as an expert you should know where these figures come from.


Quote: I am well aquainted with PA and personaly know a number of the senior posters there.

Well, that’s good for you, I'm not aquainted on net forums, but I'm acquainted in mil. circles.

So how come your own statements and claims contradict with the statements and claims on the panzer-archiv.de then? Hence, you saying they all are simply wrong.

Read all the 82 pages carefully, you may perhaps actually notice something…differences vs your expert statements and claims.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=2794&highlight=panzer++berlin


Quote: I am Michael Kenny. That is all I ever will be and I repeat, I never hide behind an alias. Now that is out of the way can you provide the evidence that leads you to state the Berlin killls were confirmed?

And I’m AJJ, not an alias either.

Can you provide any proof otherwise? You made a lot of statements and claims, see above, 50% off etc..., without providing a single source.

E.g. those books listed above contradict your statements and claims.

As I said a number of times earlier, I’m not claiming anything, I wasn’t in Berlin 1945 – wasn’t even born yet that time, but you weren’t in Berlin 1945 either. I’m just merely quoting historians, archives and so on, that should be quite clear for everyone to understand easily, but not for you, since this is already the second time I’m saying this. To be even more precise, I’m not even claiming anything being 100% sure, since nothing in life is 100% sure, except death.

Read all above listed books, search archives and so on, do your homework, I’m not going to hold your hand and walk you through the materials and hints I gave. I’m not going to point you out details, which are there, since as you got work your way through yourself. That should be relatively easy for an expert like you, as it wasn’t so hard for a non-expert like me, took about more or less five yrs freetime (not all the freetime Thank God).

I gave you a pretty good head start where to pick and collect info, needs just quite a bit of work. Some material you won’t be able to get in your hands ever, but I guess that doesn’t matter, as you wouldn’t be able to understand them anyway.

No offence meant, but as said already, you won’t learn armored warfare just by surfing in the net and reading books, sorry Michael, that’s not the way it goes, ever. You’ll always remain as an “armchair expert” no matter what, that’s all there is.

Actually I’m getting very bored and reluctant to share my resources and knowledge I have. I’m through with this, not wasting my time anymore.

As far as I’m concern, you can freely play the “Expert” role on the net forums or to be the “King of Hill” on the net forums, I really don’t care, honestly.

Good luck for reading and research work!

All the best,

AJJ, a simple ex-soldier, only a history hobbyist, not a history expert

 

I hear a lot of chest thumping and detect the pungent odour of sour grapes. What I don't see or hear is a single specific and checkable source that confirms any of the kills you claim for the Tigers.
Why is that?
It must have taken you ages to compose the garbage above. Surely it would have been much quicker to post just one of the many sources you claim confirm the kills?

Why do you continue with the charade?
The best course of action would be to admit your error and modify your conclusions. Simply insert the word 'claim' where you previously wrote 'confirmed' and you can continue to keep us spellbound with accounts of superhuman courage in the face of overwhelming odds.
We await more of your tales of lone Tigers vainly trying to hold back the tide of retribution lapping around the steps of the Reichstag..........................

 

Yes let us examine the record of the deadliest Tiger Abteilung of the war. The records for 18th and 19th April 1945 tell us that SS 503 claimed 64 Soviet tanks on 18/4/45 and a staggering 181 on 19/4/45
245 tanks in 2 days is a brilliant performance. (source Schneider, TIC II page 372/373) More so when the admitted Russian losses were 164 for 18/4/45.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=124380&start=0
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=30939
http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/253/117/lang,en/
It seems that this day SS 503 allowed other units to join in their feeding frenzy. However the next day they claimed 181 of the Soviet 189 losses.(Schneider, as above) Remember also this is the total of destroyed and damaged Soviet tanks rather that 'confirmed destroyed' totals
Absolutely stunning isn't it? Though there were vastly more experienced Tiger Units it seems SS 503 were head and shoulders above everyone else. Willbeck (Sledgehammers, page 188) gives them a kill ratio of 50:1. This is some 2.5 times greater than its nearest rival Heer 505 (20:1) However he does see fit to add a caution about the claimed kill totals-rather churlish of him don't you think?
Either they were the most efficient killing machines at the front or there was something seriously wrong with their kill confirmation procedure. I wonder which it was?