Best German Fighter???

Ah it is not suppose to be an argument, but the truth !

Case in point, November 21, 1944 the 398th bomb group got lost almost and deviated off course and were jumped by Fw 190A-8's and A-9's from JG 301. Only at the final moment did P-51's come to their rescue to ward off the Fw's. US losses according to author Roger Freeman were 5 bombers but talking with several 398th bomber vets they lost 12-15 confirmed ! JG 301 losses were 25 Fw's with 12 pilots KIA. This was my cousin's first mission with 5./JG 301.
November 26, 1944 my cousins 2nd and last mission while being 5th staffel leaders wingman. Both he and his staffelkapitän were shot down and killed by P-51's and return fire of the B-24's they were atacking. This missions was to bomb the oil refineries at Hannover/Misburg. A large part of JG 301, actually 1/2 of I. and II. gruppe flying the Fw 190A-9 was to draw off the P-51 escort force in which they did, which allowed momentarily for the heavier III./gruppe of JG 301 to attack from the rear the 445th and 491st B-24 groups. 16 plus B-24's were lost. In the middle of the bounce of the bombers, the upper first and second gruppe Fw 190's were overwhelmed and the P-51 contingent grew mightly in size. My cousin and his leader banked away from the melee and tried to attack the B-24's but both were shot down. The staffelkapitän to the southeast of Misburg and my cousin some distance away to the south west of Misburg. The 2nd scouting force along with the 355th and 339th did their job admirably and if they had not been there it would have been a total loss of all of the 491st B-24's which was mentioned to me by the 491st vets organization. The 445th b.g lost 5 and the 491st lost 16 bombers. Jg 301 was slaughtered and lost over 60 Fw's with 25 killed and 14 plus wounded......did the P-51's drop their tanks....yes ! Did the Fw's mix it up with them......yes, and gave a good account of themselves even if they only scored 1 P-51. The idea as mentioned was to keep the Allied escorts from defending the bombers, and the 491st vets to this day are very peeeeeee-od that the escorts did not stay with them until right at the end, but only coming to their rescue after the turning point away from the target....such is the fate of war !

E

 

Sorry, didn't know about your cousin. Once again, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE THE P-51 LOOK BAD!!! It's not my fault the escort didn't stay with the bombers and I would be very P-O'd if my escort didn't stay with me too! Looks like the attackers did their job very well, and these are only two accounts! Hey, I wonder if that's a good thing?...

[ 12 October 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Mustang ]

 

I don't think my posts are making the P-51 look bat at all. What I am reporting are just a couple of instances where the Allied escorts were not at the right place at the right time. The first instance was actually the bomb group leaders fault being out of the main bomber stream and having his co-ordinates off. Just history being shown that's all.

E

 

I think the Me 109 was the best german fighter.The Me-109 was the best known and most produced German fighter of World War II.
The Me-109s earned the respect of Germany's enemies. In the begin of war it was a fear of all allied bombers.

 

Some long nose trouble for P-51:

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Long%20Nose%20Trouble.htm

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Oops:

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/aces/images/B6F1.jpg

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/aces/images/B6F2.jpg

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Some interesting info from the site following the text:

Defining a top German ace as one with over 200 victories, here are their fates:

Erich Hartmann 352, captured by Soviet troops after V-E day, spent 10 years as POW

Gerhard Barkhorn 301, badly hurt in Me 262 (not Bf 109) crash 17 Apr 45, became major general in postwar Luftwaffe, killed with wife in car accident 1983

Gunther Rall 275, shot down 8 times, badly wounded including loss of left thumb to P-47, captured by British, joined postwar Luftwaffe, retired 1975

Otto Kittel 267, KIA 14 Feb 45 while flying FW 190A-8 (not Bf 109)

Walter Nowotny 258, KIA 08 Nov 44 flying Me 262 (not Bf 109)

Willi Batz 237, evaded Soviet capture at war's end, retired from Bundesluftwaffe, died 1988

Erich Rudorffer 222, survived to serve in Bundesluftwaffe

Herman Graf 212, survived, died 1988

Heinrich Bar 210, survived war, killed in civilian plane crash 1957

Heinrich Ehrler 209, KIA 04 Apr 45 flying Me 262 (not Bf 109)

Theodore Weissenburger 209, survived war, killed in car racing accident at Nurburgring 10 June 1950

Hans Philip 206, KIA 08 Oct 1943 flying FW 190 (not Bf 109) by Robert S. Johnson

Walter Schuck 206, flew only 109s and 262s, survived war, still around as of 1999

Anton Hafner 204, KIA 17 Oct 1944 when he lost situational awareness in a low-level dogfight with Yaks and his Bf 109 hit a tree

Helmut Lipfert 203, survived war, became schoolteacher, died 1990

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/bbs/messages5/5571.html

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Nice history on Mustang development:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/3604/chap2/chap2.html

Me 262

http://www.photovault.com/Link/Military/AirForce/Aircraft/Me-262Swallow.html

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The Ta 152 H's outstanding performance was tested personally by the designer himself. In December, 1944, while flying between Lagenhagen and Cottbus at the controls of one of the first aircraft, Kurt Tank was intercepted by a pair of American P-51 Mustangs. His tactics for escape were extremely simple. Tank pressed the button which activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.

http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/ta-152.htm

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The longer-nosed Fw-190D, with a redesigned tail, was a success with pilots because of increased engine reliability and performance much superior to the Fw-190A-8 in climb, dive and level speed. The aircraft attained 692kph (430mph) at 11,300m (20,200ft) and could fly 850km (480mi) -- performance that made it a much better interceptor against the burgeoning and fighter-escorted Allied bomber formations. Pilots considered it more than a match for the P-51D "Mustang". Armament was two 20mm Mauser MG-151/20 cannon in the wing (with a robust 250 rounds per gun) and two 13mm Rheinmetall MG-131 cannon (with 475 rounds per gun) over the engine.

Multirole D-9 carried bombs in some versions and radar in others (the D-9/R11 and D-12/R11 night fighters) and was even faster than the D-1, reaching 709kph (440mph) at 20,780m (37,000ft). Nicknamed "Dora-9" ("Dora" being the phonetic "D" of Luftwaffe radio traffic), service began in October 1944.

Between 650 and 700 Fw-190Ds were completed when production ceased in 1945. Focke-Wulf's Marienburg plant, although apparently devastated by bombing, itself produced eight Fw-190Ds a day in December 1944. Figures vary, but approximately 13,250 fighters and 6,250 fighter-bomber versions were produced. This included 11,411 accepted by the Luftwaffe in 1944 alone-an increase of 375% over the previous year-and some 2,700 added in the final months of the war, even though about 30% of Fw-190 factories had been overrun by Soviet forces by February 1945.

http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/focke_190d.htm

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The last Ta 152H-O

http://www.users.bigpond.com/markltuc/ta152h-o.htm

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Nicknames for german aircraft:

http://www.hut.fi/~andres/lw_nn_t.html

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I'm starting to think that the Fw-190 was the best German fighter.....

 

The Messerschmidt BF (ME) 109 E

for its period i mean, they best pilots in the world were flying it and had the best engine an armament available.

 

Kai :

There were no D-9/R-11 bad weather fighters or any night fighter versions produced for ops.

E

JG 2 was fully equipped with the D-9.
JG 11 had a few in the stab.
JG 26 was almost fully equipped
III./Jg 54 whcih flew top cover for Me 262 Kmdo Nowotny then was transferred and was absorbed by JG 26.
A few in gruppen stab JG 4
A few in Gruppen stab and 15./JG 3
Galland Circus JV 44 staffel
JG 6 quite a few
JG 51 had a few

these being in 1945.

E

 

Thanx Erich,

There´s only so much the sites and books can give, except for this forum! Excellent!

 

Good point Kai. Other books and/or sites can't offer the "Human Encyclopedia"....Erich Brown!

 

Now you see, Mustang? You CANNOT argue about aeroplanes with Herr Braun...

 

Well.....You could, but it would not be the smart thing to do. Not by a long shot!

 

Geezo guys ! I don't know everything about a/c and that is the truth. This is a great avenue because it makes me hunt through files I haven't looked at for some time.

vielen dank

Horrido !

E

 

He doesn't only know everything about planes, but is also modest!

 

Congratulations on the award and rank Friedrich. I guess you're not a soldier anymore! Cool Avatar Erich!

 

Many thanks, Mustang! Keep going that way and you'll catch me up!

 

He's modest too!

 

General 109 characteristics:

Excellent climb rate
Good rudder response
Excellent high altitude performance
Above average low speed handling
Good negative-G handling
Below Average visibility from the cockpit
Not particularly "new pilot friendly"
Moderate to low ammunition supply
Mediocre ground attack capability
Poor Bomber Interceptor
Mediocre durability
Other features vary depending on the 109. For example, the 109E had excellent firepower for its time period, but is the only major 109 version( not counting "upgunned" field modifications such as the 109G/R6) that has to be mindful of gun convergence factors. The most produced 109's carried all their firepower in the nose, but had moderate firepower lethality. The armament of one cannon and two machine guns of varying calibre and cability was fairly standard. It should be stressed that this armament was deemed quite adequate against the fighters and medium bombers being fielded by the Allies in the early war years. Only with the advent of the large 4-engine bombers and heavily armored attack planes was the 109's armament configuration put into question. Like the other changes in the 109 to deal with improved enemy capabilities, the attempts to add it its firepower caused compromises eleswhere, which decreased rather than increased the aircrafts overall effectiveness. The 109's armed with the more powerful 30mm cannon did so at the cost of a much reduced ammunition load.
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Some tricks....

The 109's are good at negative G maneuvers. The key is to do these without reding out, or just barely reding out and recovering very quickly. The key to the negative G maneuvers is to first make the enemy lose sight, then get "out of plane"; that is out of his flight path and imminent gun solution. After the enemy has lost the "saddle up" position the 109 can either attempt to extend or, even reenage favorably, especially if the enemy has lost sight for a significant amount of time.

Hartmanns Escape: (An escape maneuver practiced by Erich Hartmann, the top scoring Ace of all time.) Throw the stick into one "corner" (45 degrees forward) and give a lot of rudder in that direction. The plane will slide down and to the side. A very hard move to match. An attack will have to roll about 150 degrees and then begin a normal positive G pull on the stick in order to pursue that move.

Corrollary to Hartmanns Escape: A very shape negative-G pushover pushing the plane below the enemies view. Then a sharp pull-up involving maximimum rudder deflection. If done correctly this will leave the 109 flying at about 90 degrees off its original flightpath, and the pursuer will have lost the 109 below his cowling, so will have to reaquire visually. By this time the 109 can try to extend or even turn the tables.

Aggressive Corrollary to the Hartmann Escape: A short Negative G pushover transitioning to a sliding barrel roll forcing an attacker into an overshoot. If performed perfectly this maneuver will leave the 109 close on the enemies six after exiting the barrel roll.

And lots more on Bf 109...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/109instructions.html

 

Nobody has mentioned the power egg !!! The Me-163 was a better intercepter than the Me-262 and if the war had gone longer they could have worked on increasing it's operational time in the air. In a Me-163 you did not have to worry about allied escorts shooting you down, all you had to worry about is not making a hard landing and blowing up.
Really the German fighter that got the Germans as much progress as they got early in the war was the 109. If they could have widdened the landing gear a bit, then it would have been even better. My prefrence is the TA-152 because it looks like a fighter should. But overall the pilot makes the difference between winning and losing.

 

I guess the Me 163´s stats scare to put it no 1. It was a great plane, except that problems with fuel made it almost as dangerous to the German pilots as it was to the allied pilots in the air.
I am convinced that with time they would have overcome the problems and with gun systems like SG 500 Jagdfaust they would have blown the B-17´s out of the sky...check the sites below for this.


"Production Me 163Bs were not ready for operational use until July 1944. The Luftwaffe planned to have small units of Komets dispersed to intercept Allied bomber formations, but only 279 Me 163Bs were delivered by the end of the war. The sole operational Komet group, JG 400, scored 9 kills while losing 14 of its own aircraft."

http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163.htm

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Chief test pilot Rudy Opitz:

“The 163 was originally envisioned as an interceptor for high flying reconnaisance aircraft—at 30,000 feet say. But it was instead used to attack large formations of bombers. "

“The highly experienced fighter pilots could fly and attack in a 45-degree climb. They were quite safe because the turrets couldn’t easily follow them. These were the pilots who survived."

"When the 163 was designed, Germany had air superiority at the lower altitudes. That was not the case anymore in ’44. There were P-51s and P-38s, and their pilots learned very fast that as the 163s came up, you left them alone, but on the way down the 163s had a short flying time, and they could be targeted. But the 163, now empty of fuel, had a low wing loading and could dive much closer to the ground before pulling out than could the Allied fighters."

"Several hundred 163Bs were built,
but only 91 were operational as of December 31, 1944, and only 16 kills were attributed to 163s during the War. Note, however, that while under power or in a fast glide, the 163 could fly circles around any other fighter of its time."

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/
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Production of the Me 163B-1a ended in Febuary 1945 after almost 400 of all variants had been built. Projected developments included the Me 163C and Me 163D; the former was a modification of the Me 163B with an auxiliary cruising chamber to improve endurance, a new center section and a more streamlined fuselage with a blister canopy. Three Me 163C-1a aircraft were built, but only one was flown. The Me 163D was futher refined and had retractable tricycle landing gear. One prototype was built and, since Junkers had been tasked with development and series production of this model, it was for a while known as the Ju 248 before reverting it to a Messerschmitt designation as the Me 263. It did not enter production, the prototype being captured by the Russians who fitted it with new straight wings and modified tail surfaces, flying it in 1946 as the I-270(ZH), but it was soon abandoned.

Mention should be made of a licence-built version of the Me 163B, the Mitsubishi Ki-200 (J8M1), which was to be built in Japan with Mitsubishi and Yokosuta building the HWK 509A motor. Loss of the pattern aircraft on a ship en route to Japan left the Japanese with only an instruction manual, and it is to their credit that they began design of an airframe based on the Me 163B. The first aircraft flew in July 1945 but was destroyed when the motor failed. Several others were built but the programme was terminated by the end of the war.

http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/me-163.htm