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Brutality of Stalin and the invading GERMAN ARMY

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe October 1939 to February 1943' started by gusord, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Stalin was all to happy to ablige.
     
  2. gusord

    gusord Member

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    Fighting in a city building by building is difficult and different than breaking out on a German front in the open. Tanks are better in open country.
     
  3. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    I agree
     
  4. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    My entire family in the war, I have been privileged enough to speak to a few. Prior to Moscow it was hell, confusion and desperation. Things calmed down slightly after the battle. The Red Army received the breath it needed. Even in October Russian military doctrine was rewritten by Zhukov. Human waves were forbidden unless supported by artillery and air. Tanks would now hit the flanks. The Russians were quick learners and by 1943 were a frightening force. The notion that the Russians didnt care about casualties is also a myth. They had a monumental task ahead of them and did the best they could with what they had. Shtrofbat battalions were a complete different animal tho.
     
  5. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Which generals were executed for not being able to break out? Konev was also involved in taking Berlin. The Red Army did not did not suffer 500k casualties taking Berlin.
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The Soviets certainly seemed to have had a better idea of how to manage logistics than the Germans did. My impression is not that they didn't care about casualties but that they considered personel as another resources that had to be expended in war. General Grant from the ACW is often stated to have had a similar outlook and General Lee made a comment to the effect of loving his troops but that being a general often meant destroying what you loved. The western allies tended to be more adverse to personnel casualties but by 42 the Western allies weren't fighting for their survival anymore or even to keep enemy troops off their soil much less expel them (unless you count various colonies as such).

    It's wiki but:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin
    Lists Red Army casualties as in excess of 300,000 where did the 500K come from?
     
  7. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    One of the best Generals of WW1 (commonly still called the Great War) was Russian Aleksei Brusilov. Indeed, you can hear of the "Brusilov Offensive", of June 1916.

    "...the Brusilov Offensive was, on the scale by which success was measured in the foot-by-foot fighting of the First World War, the greatest victory seen on any front since the trench lines had been dug on the Aisne two years before". -Keegan

    It was a costly victory, and ultimately let down by the reluctance of other Russian commanders North of the Pripet Marshes to support the offensive, and embrace the new tactics.

    It was General Brusilov that gave a certain Mannerheim command of the 12th Cavalry division.
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    I think he may be referring to the chaos of 1941, when some officers were executed for, amongst other things incompetence (General Dmitri Pavlov, Дми́трий Григо́рьевич Па́влов, leaps to mind).
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    41' was tough. Several senior officers come to mind. For starters, 4 division commissars ... 2 mia in 41'...Petrovich was transferred to the Ghestapo in 41' and the 4th Rybkin Gregory Dem'yanovich died of illness in Leningrad 42'.

    Commissar of State Security 3rd Rank (the equivalent rank of Lieutenant General) Mikheev Anatoly Nikolaevich, killed in action 41'

    Senior Major of State Security (equivalent to rank of major general) Murro Andrei Andreevich, killed when ship hit a mine evacuating Talin 41'.

    Senior Major of State Security, Yakunchikov Nikolai Alexeyevich, killed in action 41'
     
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