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Captured!

Discussion in 'Western Europe 1943 - 1945' started by KodiakBeer, Jun 7, 2015.

  1. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    A thread that recently popped up rekindled some questions I've had for a long time.

    We don't read much about the actual experience of being captured. We read about captivity. We read about the often long and arduous road to a camp. But, I've haven't seen many anecdotes about the actual dangerous moment of capture and the minutes and hours afterwards.

    It strikes me as an extremely dicey moment. You're throwing down your arms and putting yourself at the mercy of angry men that you've been killing moments before. Their friends and comrades are still bleeding in the dirt. They're angry and loaded with adrenaline. There is no "off" switch in the human brain to switch it from murder to mercy.

    I'm not so much interested in large unit surrenders as we saw towards the end of the war when thousands of Germans simply gave up. I'm interested in fierce small unit actions when one side or the other simply ran out of options. How often did that go wrong and the guns kept firing? How often did it go right? How often were prisoners brutalized before the captors calmed down?

    Any anecdotes or insight would be appreciated.


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  2. Pacifist

    Pacifist Active Member

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  3. Smiley 2.0

    Smiley 2.0 Smiles

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    There was an American soldier's memoir I read a year or two back (I can't remember the title I'll have to look at my reading log). It wasn't during the Second World War, it was during the Korean War. This soldier was captured by the Chinese and he gives a very good description of his capture as well as his years as a POW.
     
  4. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Quite frankly, from my reading, the larger the group of surrendering men, the more likely they were to survive. Surrendering in ones and twos, even if the fight wasn't all that nasty, was really risky. No squad or platoon leader, probably already low on men, wants to detail 1-3 men to escort them back to the rear. Generally, they were quickly disposed of. Often, isolated Germans would hide out if they could until the follow-up units came through because they would be more likely to take their surrender.

    Anecdote: Two German soldiers were over-run in a German town. It became quickly obvious that the assaulting American unit wasn't taking prisoners. They waited until that unit had passed and then had an eight year old boy go out and tell the follow-up unit that two German soldiers wanted to surrender. Several soldiers came and took their surrender and they survived.
     
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  5. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    good call Kody..... yes , they are trying to kill you and you, them...perhaps your best friend just got killed...normal reaction to some1 trying to kill you is, scared, angry, survival...you think '' I'm going to kill the SOB/MOFO "" everyone is tense, very tense, no??
    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/54704-blood-lust-sane-insane/ I say the same thing in this thread... ...
    would the savage battles of the Pacific have been different?? the Japanese hardly ever surrendering...I would definitely think, a lot of 'helpless '/weaponless/ etc, Japanese were shot...not so much a surrender, but I did read where a Marine was trying to hack the gold tooth out of a wounded Japanese....and then another Leatherneck put some rounds into him....
    perhaps the killing of POWS is not mentioned much due to bad PR/PC?? that's why there is not much documentation?? how many times when we read about 'close, bayonet fighting', it really means ''some where killed while surrendering" ?
    I did read in the Hurtgen battles, where a German stuck his rifle out of a basement window, at close range, and put the coup de grace into a wounded GI.. they killed the German...but I ask you, would you have taken that German POW?
    another aspect is the servicemen haven't had real sleep in a long time...the nerves are more likely to be jumpy...you're not in complete 'control' of your actions..
     
  6. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Yeah Bronk, there's all those things going on. I'm rather focused on the infantry in the ETO, and it's only now in the last few years that many of those guys talk about that aspect of the war. Certainly after Malmedy, which got huge play in the press, any Waffen SS surrendering had much poorer chances of making it back to the cage. I've also read of Panzer crew getting shot simply because the black uniform was mistaken for SS. Almost all of that was in the immediate aftermath of fighting, so excusable (or at least understandable) for the reasons you state above.
     
  7. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    the Malmedy massace was not heat of the moment? or the Ardenne Abbey one??..great topic here to research.....as usual, many aspects to consider.....but I've never read to much on any heat of the moment shootings...of course, a lot of my reading has been the older books...
    you saw the Dachau POW shooting in the recent threat....that is strange...not too long after capture......but there was no firefight or battle before
     
  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    As I said about SS, I don't think any American troops were ever prosecuted for shooting them, heat of the moment or not. When you look at the figures, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of Germans were captured without brutality. They were simply sent to the rear in the proper manner. Yet, there are undoubted incidents where that didn't happen and I'm curious about the psychological triggers.

    There's a famous story about Peiper having an American pilot shot just because he wanted his flight suit. A similar story involves some other 1st SS who saw a small column of American prisoners being walked back to the rear by fallschirmjager and volunteered to take them in their truck. They stuffed a half dozen American POWs in the rear, drove about a mile and shot them for their boots. Those kind of motives are pretty obvious - they have better gear, lets kill them and take it.
     
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I remember reading somewhere that a vet mentioned at one point that they were told to stop shooting anyone wearhing a particular style of uniform. Turned out that the railway workers in Germany wore military looking uniforms.

    As for being prosecuted for shooting SS troops. I think I read that the officer in charge of the US troops at Dachau recieved administrative punishment for "failing to control" his troops. Which amounted to a letter in his personel file from what I recall reading. Don't know if you want to call that "prosecuted" or not. There were some legal staff that wanted to prosecute some for that event but Patton stopped it, from what I recall (and this is very hazy) in part because he was sure that even if convicted they would be cleared on appeal and a number of the precedents it would set could be bad. I suspect he would have been at least very tempted to join in the shooting himself and that may have affected his reactions as well.
     
  10. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The Dachau incident became a "thing" because there were photos and since it was another camp, a slew of journalists and staffers showed up shortly afterwards. Many of those shot were Waffen SS who had nothing to do with the camp. They were from a military hospital that adjoined the camp.

    I was thinking more of Waffen SS in the field, many of whom were shot immediately after capture. And Wehrmacht troops shot trying to surrender or shot immediately afterward while passions ran high. And of course this happened on the other side as well, perhaps more frequently.

    It's just one of those dirty secrets of war that was never talked about. But it seems lately, I've been reading more anecdotes about this here and there.

    At the same time you read of very gallant acts where soldiers of both sides took great risks to save a wounded enemy. On the outskirts of Bastogne, a hospital ran continuously with either side holding it at various times and German and American doctors and medics working together - each side allowing litter bearers from the other side to pass through the line. An American medic was shot at Mortain and the SS trooper who shot him approached and apologized profusely for not seeing the red cross. In the same battle, the Germans captured a small convoy of American wounded and immediately let them go on their way.

    It's an interesting bit of psychology. War brings out the best and the worst in people.
     
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  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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  12. harolds

    harolds Member

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    My impression of the Waffen SS was they were inconsistent. Sometimes overly brutal. Sometimes showing commendable mercy. Perhaps it was the mood they were in or the individual commanders varied in their ideas of "chivalry".

    In Audie Murphy's "To Hell and Back" he said that after a certain time he never took prisoners and neither did his men, unless ordered to. He just considered it too much of a hassle and a risk. If he saw someone in a German uniform he just killed him. It was easier that way.
     
  13. Pacifist

    Pacifist Active Member

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  14. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Harolds' Audie Murphy anecdote mirrors much of what I'm seeing on this subject. Perhaps men just got brutalized after a time and only took prisoners when convenient.

    In the same post, he mentions the Waffen SS being very inconsistent, which is something I've pondered for a long time. Since I follow the Old Hickory Division with particular interest, I've noticed that after their first big clash with the 1st and 2nd SS at Mortain they speak of the SS as great soldiers. There's a touch of admiration in some of those tales. There was a bit of chivalry on both sides. Yet, in Belgium they began shooting them out of hand. It's easy to understand the GI attitude because Malmedy was on everyone's mind. It's harder to understand the sudden upsurge in brutality by the Waffen SS, especially when it come to civilians.
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Wasn't there a considerable degredation in training? At some point the SS went to conscription as well didn't they? The continuous reversals on all fronts would have been a source of frustration to all I would imagine as well. Perhaps it's soft of like running down a steep hill. Once you start it's not only hard to stop it's hard to not accelerate.
     
  16. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    lack of sleep, and food, plus experiencing hell, horror, killing after killing, etc eventually, that can break down any training and morals in anyone, no?? add extreme heat or cold, and you will get very miserable, edgy, etc , no? more likely to blast someone?? my lord, look at the papers.. guns being fired for road rage, loud music, cell phone use in a theater, etc....and I take it these people have had good food, sleep, etc
    realistically, I would not think it was ''common''....but maybe a lot more than reported....but Kody brings up a great point and topic on the moment of capture/capturing
    LWD brings up training....I'm sure we've all read where the frontline, well trained troops had ''more'' discipline and respect for the enemy, than the clean up troops.....and there was frustration on both sides, no?
     
  17. Tipnring

    Tipnring Active Member

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    MILWAUKEE SENTINEL EXTRA! Tuesday, May 22, 1945 Milwaukee, WI Page: 13
    Milwaukee_Sentinel_1945-05-22_13.jpeg Oregonian_1945-05-23_22.jpeg The Oregonian Wednesday, May 23, 1945 Portland, OR Page: 22
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
  18. Tipnring

    Tipnring Active Member

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    img.jpeg



    The Circleville Herald Circleville, Ohio 27 May 1946, Mon • Page 2
     

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