Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Churchill at Normandy

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Riter, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. harolds

    harolds Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    276
    You're right about the disjointed. He never mentioned the trip. However, the letter to Grigg makes more sense now. Thanks.
     
  2. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,594
    Likes Received:
    480
    Making it clear to Churchill that he couldn't have something he wanted didn.t necessary resolve the situation..... ;)
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    8,734
    Likes Received:
    1,847
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    Agree,

    The discussion concerning the 2nd trip begins on of 141.
     
  4. Riter

    Riter Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    38
    The article I read said it was a German soldier. If it is true, I highly doubt if it was a sniper. Sniper was a term loosely applied by the Americans and included Gremans who were armed with belt fed MGs, schmeissers, etc.

    If anybody wants to publish that article, I'll be happy to email it to them for sharing at this site. I don't know how to do it.
     
    A-58 and Otto like this.
  5. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    9,518
    Likes Received:
    1,654
    Location:
    DFW, Texas
    Send it to me, I'll be happy to post. Email in my sig.
     
  6. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2008
    Messages:
    8,604
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    Location:
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Hey boss, where are going to post that article? I would like to read it too.
     
  7. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    9,518
    Likes Received:
    1,654
    Location:
    DFW, Texas
    I'll respond and post the link here when I get it. :thumbup:
     
    A-58 likes this.
  8. Riter

    Riter Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    38
    Thanks Otto. You will receive an email from Department of Homeland. Security (in German). It'll probably be in your spam folder
     
    Otto likes this.
  9. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    452
    Location:
    London UK
    I think these are two different incidents. Brooke's diary make no reference to Churchill wanting to stay longer on 12 June. Same source writes of a blow up by Churchill on 19th July after being told by Eisenhower that Montgomery had said he did not want any visitors in the next few days. Brooke's post war diary note described Churchill as literally frothing with rage about what he took to be a personal slight. Brooke recounted how Monty explained that Henry L Stimson - US Politician had visited Bradley and remained so long that orders could not be got out and an attack postponed by 24 hours. He asked Ike to put a stop yo visitors for the time being. Ike had passed this upwards and it was taken as a personal slight by Churchill. Given the context of allied frustrations and the attempts to co-ordinate Op Cobra with Anglo Canadian operations at Caen, Monty had a point. This was a resolved with a grovel-o-gram drafted by Brooke apologising , explaining it was not meant of WSC who was always welcome, could visit whenever he wanted to and if he could not be there in person he would put aside his caravan and a staff officer to host him.

    Read Lamb if you want to stoke up on the Monty hate ;)
     
  10. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    The Shire
    Perhaps Ike and Monty ought to have taken a leaf out of Haig's book. He also had not wanted the distractions of visiting politicians, royalty etc etc so he appointed Lt-Gen Sir Aylmer Gould Hunter-Weston - AKA Hunter Bunter - to look after them. Hunter Bunter was a dangerously incompetent divisional commander but a whizz at PR and smooozing VIPs etc and of sufficiently senior rank to make them still feel important. This way Haig got both the politicians and a dud general out of his hair. I'm sure that Monty or Ike could have come up with a WW2 Hunter Bunter. Any nominations?
     
  11. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,594
    Likes Received:
    480
    Politicians don't like to hear it, but there is just about zero value to these expeditions. Visiting the troops could be a morale booster. Once in a while there is a legitimate need for high-level meetings to set strategy.
     
  12. harolds

    harolds Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    276
    Lamb criticizes Monty but also gives his credit for things too. In this instance, I'd agree with Monty that having visitors at that time would be a burden on Monty and his staff. However, Monty did make exceptions for higher ups he liked such as Grigg and Brooke. IIRC, there was a similar problem with WSC about the time the Brits were crossing the Rhine.
     
  13. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    The Shire
    Democracies do need some evidence that the military remain under scrutiny and accountability, the military may not always like this. In war time it's a difficult balance.
     
  14. harolds

    harolds Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    276
    While I somewhat agree with you, my reading of history makes me believe that a country's military fortunes are inversely proportional to how much the Head of State meddles in the affairs of generals. Churchill was a consumate meddler.
     
    Carronade and Riter like this.
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    8,734
    Likes Received:
    1,847
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    Much depends on the Head of State and the General.

    Lincoln & McClellan, for instance. Kennedy & JCS during the Cuban Missile Crisis, for another.

    Churchill did meddle, but, then again, some of his ideas did have merit. However, those ideas were ineptly executed by the Generals.
     
  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    452
    Location:
    London UK
    The point about the July incident is not that Montgomery was bothered by a VIP visit, but that a visit by a senior US politician delayed US Operations - Op Cobra or a preliminary by 24 hours. That may have been an excuse by First US Army - if so it was a very poor one. Montgomery was mounting offensives in the Caen area which resulted in casualties on a scale that the Anglo Canadian army could not sustain. Each day that the allies were fighting battle of attrition in Normandy cost thousands of casualties.

    Mid July was a frustrating time for Allied land commanders. The British were still short of their D Day Objectives. Patience was growing thin over Montgomery's "Master Plan" and Tedder, Leigh Mallory and Coningham were briefing against Montgomery.
     
  17. ARWR

    ARWR Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2020
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    The Shire
    Attended a seminar by John Buckley, on Monty's command style, about a year back. According to John he had a strong belief that there was a limit on how many decisions a brain could handle in a day and that a minor decision like what to have for dinner used up as much capacity as a big one like which brigade to order forward. As a result he made major efforts to limit what decisions he had to make any day (so for example he had a fixed menu so he always ate the same meals on a Thursday etc). Possibly a visit by the PM was viewed as creating a decision overload even if they were minor ones. Given that some analysts have concluded that Monty may have been high functioning autistic this makes a degree of sense.
     
    Riter likes this.
  18. harolds

    harolds Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    276
    Let's take this autism theory a bit further. What we used to call Asperger's Syndrome but now is called, "on the Autism spectrum" is characterized by the following traits:
    1. Extremely poor social skills.
    2. Inability to be mentally flexible. Almost impossible for them to change their minds or their thinking.
    3. Interested in only a few things to the point of obsession, but often are very expert in these areas-which are all they want to talk about.
    4. Have a hard time feeling empathy for others. Can't put themselves "in other people's shoes".

    Now, do these points remind you of Monty?
     
  19. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,594
    Likes Received:
    480
    I could envision that ;)

    I basically admire Churchill, but like many of his friends and admirers at the time, I agree he could be bit distracting.....
     
  20. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    22,523
    Likes Received:
    1,086
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
    Churchill obviously had a bipolar disorder or the black dog as he called it. He was thus at times totally depressed and at times really agitated. If he was really "flying" who knows what he decided to do....
     

Share This Page