Churchill turning his back on Poland

Wow you make a snide comment about someone doing googling for someone else then come up with that last line? If they were other countries (as oppose to colonies) they certainly had a choice. I seam to recall that Canada for instance took several days to declare war on Germany. Even in the colonies like India recruitment was voluntary I believe.

 

My grandmother who I live with was adopted and raised by her mother's brother who was born in London, and moved to Canada as a boy and came back to London with the Canadians to fight for Canada in the war (WWI)... The Canadians came to London, full Mountie uniform and everything back then, and went over to France to fight (like everyone else) - but still, basically my grandmother's dad 'Grandad Wright' - Wright also being her mother's maiden name.
He stayed in London however, and because he lived outside of Canada, never saw his war pension.
I guess WWII was different, and not like WWI. WWII it seems, Canada decided to go to war, not GB deciding that for Canada.
.. Either way, Canada were there in WWII... I think everybody but India and Ireland were there in WWII.
Even Palestine did its bit under British rule and created Israel (probably amongst doing other things); I remember -
Israel was made by Britain out of Palestine and recognised by the United States thus making Israel official.

 

Well Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain and still is so they were there. The Republic of Ireland was not only not part of Great Britain it wasn't even part of the Commonwealth. On the other hand a lot of Irish joined the British army during WWII. There was a series of articles not too long ago (a year or so I think) about Irish who had deserted from the Irish Army to join the British one during WWII. As for India there were multiple divisions of Indian troops in British service during WWII and India was still a colony at the time.

Palestine on the other hand was a protectorate. There were some who volunteered from their to serve in the British forces but there were also some who served the Axis powers (a very few, relatively speaking, Indians did the same).

 

Indeed OP, he was great mufti of Jerusalem, an uncle of Yasser Arafat, an ideological father of the present day Islamist militant extremists, or in plain English - terrorists from the Middle east.

Recently, we have talked about the Mufti of Jerusalem HERE.

 

The Republic of Ireland did not exist at the time of WW2. The so-called southern part of Ireland, which became a sovereign independent state in 1922, took the name Irish Free State, and was a member of the Commonwealth. It retained that status until 1947, when it declared itself a Republic, and left the Commonwealth.

In 1939 the Irish Free State declared neutrality in WW2. It also declared neutrality in the Cold War, and has never joined NATO.

 

Thanks for the correction. I have read that some in Ireland considred fighting both ways if the British and Germans invaded although that may have been more political posturing than anything. Hadn't realized that Ireland was in the Commonwealth at that point. That may explain the ease with which my Uncles officers club procured their supply though. I thought the border would have been tighter than it probably was.

 

It was decided that British citizens of Northern Ireland would not be conscripted as it would cause an unwanted complication by those who still strived for a united Ireland. Many volunteered, both Republicans and Loyalists.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_ArIeQo8zo

 

Since, as I have already pointed out, the Republic Ireland did not exist at the time of WW2, this document, whatever it is, is clearly not worth the material of which it is made.

 

That the Irish state, whether it be called "Free" or "Republic", mistreated those Irishmen that fought in World War 2, long afterwards, and that is despicable.

As it became the Republic, it inherited the obligations and treaties of it's predecessor.

It's not a few men here. An estimated 60,000 left the Free State to fight against Nazism. Coming back home to find themselves ostracized, and discriminated against, barred from public service, was life-shattering for most.

The republic continued with the shameful discrimination. Therefore the "document's" title is still clearly valid.

 

There were as I mentioned previously a significant number who deserted from the Irish Military to join the British military. I can see a government not being enthused about that. I don't remember reading about any significant number of them being harshly punished for by the Irish government for said desertion.

 

That would depend on your interpretation of "harsh".

Being unable to get a job, being blacklisted, and ostracized is IMO, pretty harsh. The "Starvation Order". Many of these people (and their families with them) suffered for the rest of their lives. For the crime of fighting Nazism. Those that deserted to enter a criminal career were not on the Blacklist...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-16287211

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10041215/Ireland-pardons-Second-World-War-soldiers-who-left-to-fight-Nazis.html

 

Considering the penalties that can be assessed for desertion in most countries they weren't all that harsh. However I find the ongoing blacklisting and social reprisals rather repugnant. My impression is that the ostracization wasn't by government edict and is more a comment on the short sightedness of the individuals doing it. I think both were regrettable but at least the initial official reaction was in some ways understandable. Were said sanctions also taken against Irish citizens who didn't desert from the Irish army to join the British one?

Somewhat related, I have read that members of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade were blacklisted but I'm not sure what all that entailed other than they didn't have an easy time getting into the US military in WW2.

 

Desertion in time of war, but Ireland wasn't at war. It also flies in the face of what other Irish deserters were suffering; a few days in the brig.

The blacklist was an official confidential document.


Commissioned by the Irish government, the names of the deserters were alphabetically listed in a confidential 1945 report entitled, ‘List of personnel of the Defence Forces dismissed for desertion in time of National Emergency’, along with their date of birth and last known address. These men, whether dead or alive, were formally discharged from the Irish Army and stripped of all pay and pension rights. This 130-page document was circulated to all government departments and sources of employment, be it transport services, civil service, local government, etc. The instruction from on high was that these men were to be barred from employment and government assistance.

The instruction was callously nicknamed the ‘Starvation Orders’, because the authorities knew full well that without work or benefits, these men and their families would be forced to live in dire poverty and on the brink of starvation. Most cruelly, many of the men were considered to have abandoned their offspring, thus for many of them, their children were sent to orphanages.

One Irish ex-civil servant remembers the starvation book still being in circulation and in use up to 1990. Then, finally, it fell into disuse but only because all the men listed, if still alive, had reached the age of retirement.

There were other army deserters too – men who took to a life of crime and some that even fought on the side of the Germans. None of them were treated so harshly.

 

About the main topic: Was Poland betrayed by Great Britain, USA or Western Allies? The answer is yes and no. Technically yes, but in the reality no. Why? Because they weren't loyal to Poland and didn't want to help at all. Of course in the first stage of war I write only about United Kingdom and France. USA joined to the war later.

To understand it better we need to look at first world war. Poles got two main political sites that wanted to regain independence: first of them wanted to cooperate with Germany and Austria-Hungary, the another with Russia, France and United Kingdom (but UK only as a result of being Ententa member, they didn't see UK as a potential ally).
I gonna speak about the pro-russian option. They tried to get a support in the West, but West didn't do it until the revolutionary Russia took control over the country and signed the peace with Germany. From that moment a lot of papers were signed and sent over the world like Boston and Skegness motorbike passionates declaration for independent Poland and many more worthless papers. Why they started to support the idea of independent Poland? Not for Poland of course. Britain wanted to open eastern front once more, so Germans would be forced to remove troops from France to control the East.

After the war the debate about new countries borders has begun and now British diplomats and politicians were forcing possibly worse options for Poland and possibly good for Germans. Why? The answer you can find in the Congress of Vienna, where the main thesis of British foreign policy were formed. Britain is a sea country and their target is to dominate seas and overseas trade. In the same moment there is no possibility for a continental country to gain a hegemony, so Britain supports weaker against the stronger. Then stronger becomes weaker and Britain support the new weaker.
This is a perfect opportunity for Britain to grow stronger while Germany and Russia are sharing border and engaging some of their forces, policies, energy etc. to deal against rebellious Poles. As a result of dealing against rebellious Poles Germany and Russia are less active in other sectors of politics, so both countries become less effective. When the Polish-Bolshevik war broke out, the British PM David Lloyd George made a proposition to end the conflict. The proposition made by David Lloyd George stated, that future Russian-Polish border will we established to the west from the Curzon line and the ban for having army for Poland. So we can see, that Britain accept Poland on the map, but as small, weak and unsovereign as possible.

The question is why Britain signed the pact with Poland in 1939? British knew that German-Soviet war is a matter of time, but firstly Germany need to improve their industrial abilities and gain more resources to be able to fight against SU. Germany had to attack and take a control over new territories like Czechoslovakia (one of the richest countries in Europe) Poland (one of the poorest, but with enough industrial potential to fight for and of course conditio sine qua non to start war against SU), Benelux, France, Denmark, Norway. Britain encouraged Poland by its promises to set the begining of the war at Polish front, not Western. Simply: UK wanted to buy some time to finish their own war preparations and then attack Germany with Soviet Union. This is worth to mention as well, that the secret annex to Polish-British alliance from August 1939 stated that "European Power" is Germany, not Soviet Union. Why? Probably the reason is, that SU was considered as potential ally against Germany.

In 1945, many people doesn't know that, British diplomats tried to make Polish new territory in the west smaller, but Stalin wouldn't accept that. His proposition was: lesser territory for Poland by all Germany controlled by SU. That too many for the West to accept.

To sum up Poland was extremely naive, their diplomats and politicians didn't pass the most important exam in the history and paid a horrible price for becoming an ally of its enemy. It's not turning back, it's British strategy to cancel Poland from the map or at least make it as weak as possible.

The other thing I would like to speak about is the matter of profits. Tamino, you stated that Poles were the biggest profiteers after the war. I believe, you did a comparison of their successes and looses, so you can prove your thesis. I encourage to to open a new thread, where we can discuss it.

 

Fiddlesticks.

 

In 1944 Roosevelt and Churchill were starting to have different ideas about the end of the war in Europe and probably the dividing of countries as well. FDR and Winston were not "in the same team", and perhaps Winston feared he would lose areas he needed to keep his country in some kinda charge in Eastern Europe. SO he made a pact behind FDR`s back where the eastern countries were divided between them the two of them, and that was on a piece of paper, and it seems Stalin looked at it and nodded. Stalin was a winner here as FDR and Winston were not sharing the view in Europe, then again FDR was very sick due to the Blood pressure disease that killed him in the end. They did not have medication to it by then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement

 

"The Blue Army" was formed on 4 June 1917 and composed of ethnic Polish volunteers serving alongside the allied forces in France. After fighting on the Western Front during World War I, the army was transferred to Poland where it joined other Polish military formations fighting for the return of Poland's independence.

The Polish volunteers arrived in France from all Polish diasporas numbering over 90,000 soldiers eventually.

Three interim Polish governments emerged independently of each other at the close of the Great War. A socialist government led by Daszyński was formed in Lublin. The National Committee emerged in Kraków. Daszyński (lacking support) decided to join forces with Piłsudski who was just released by the Germans from Magdeburg. On 16 November 1918 Poland declared independence. A decree defining the new republic was issued in Warsaw on 22 November 1918. A month later Paderewski joined in from France. At about the same time, heavily armed Ukrainians from the Sitchovi Stril'ci (Sitch Riflemen) seized the city of Lwów, and the battle for the control of the city erupted against the Piłsudski's legionaries. It was a high-stakes gamble with all sides attempting to set a new reality on the ground ahead of the European peace conference in Versailles of January, 1919. Similar Polish uprisings erupted in Poznań on 27 December 1918, Upper Silesia in August, 1919 then again in 1920 and May, 1921 — separated by the ad-hoc (or outright illegitimate) plebiscites with trainloads of German agents acting as local inhabitants. In the spring of 1919, the Blue Army (no longer needed in the West) was transported to Poland by train. The German forces were very slow to withdraw.

By early 1919, the Blue Army numbered 68,500 men and was fully equipped by the French government. After being denied permission by German officials to enter Poland via the Baltic port city of Danzig (Gdańsk) transportation was arranged via rail. Between April and June of that year, all the army units were moved to a newly independent Poland, across Germany in sealed train cars. Weapons were secured in separate compartments and kept under guard to appease German concerns about a foreign army traversing its territory. Immediately after its arrival, the divisions were integrated into the regular Polish Army and sent to the front lines to fight in the Polish-Ukrainian War, which was being contested in eastern Galicia.