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Could a German medium tank be outfitted with an 8.8cm gun?

Discussion in 'Armor and Armored Fighting Vehicles' started by DerGiLLster, May 5, 2016.

  1. DerGiLLster

    DerGiLLster Member

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    Could it have been possibly feasible to outfit a German Panzer IV or Panther Tank with that of an 8.8cm gun? No I am not here because of World Of Tanks. I am just curious because I am aware of the application of an 8.8cm flak cannon on that of a Panzer IV chassis. However have there been any attempts to outfit a German medium tank with an 8.8cm gun?
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    To start you off, look up the Panther Schmalturm project. Prototyped, if I recall, with a 75, but with a very late war consideration of fitting an 88.

    On the phone at the mo, but feel sure there were a few other such projects and feel like refreshing my broken memory, so will hit the books later, assuming there isn't a slew of info posted in the meantime.
     
  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Would it be heavily dependent on the diameter of the turret ring to allow for the longer travel of the 88's recoil?
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Check the turret ring, then figure the recoil.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The inside turret ring was increased 100mm. IIRC, the recoil was fine, but the ejection of the shell casing was a very tight fit.

    The project made it to the wooden mock-up, but the soft steel prototype had not yet been completed. Jentz covers this turret in detail in his book "Germany's Panther Tank - The Quest for Combat Supremacy"
     
  6. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member

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    Remember the Israelis got a French made (Post war) 105mm into a Super Sherman. They had to modify it, shorter barrel, shorter chamber, bustle on the back of the turret but it worked. The ring of the Sherman accepted a 105 howitzer so perhaps it was given a bit more diameter though their 105 was quite different than a typical main tank gun.. I agree ring diameter is a key element. But the 17 pounder in a Firefly was quite a tight fit but proved effective..

    Back to the topic at hand . In the case of the last ditch German effort was the 88 the same model as the Tiger 1 or was it also a modified version.?
    I assume the transmission-drivetrain would have been improved as well. and, was not the Panther's 75 a pretty good anti-tank gun ? Would the Germans have know about the M26 , Centurion or the JS111 while planning the Panther 88?

    Gaines
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    Following on from the schmalturm (well... associated development), Panther II was projected to have the same 88 as Tiger II, with no muzzle brake and relocated trunnions (relocated as in pretty much on the front of the turret, with Saukopf-ish arrangement).
    Daimler Benz had apparently squeezed an 88/43 into a Panther turret at some point before February '45, the turret was enlarged very slightly with the main modification required being a slightly heftier race around the turret ring to withstand the bigger bang.

    Then there's back to one of my old favourite passing interests; the German trialling of recoilless rigid-mount guns, which, if successful, might conceivably have eliminated problems of space for recoil.
    Though... despite some surprisingly promising results, I don't recall reading of actual trials with an 88.
    Ah.. tell a lie:
    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/10837-german-favour-mark-iv-as-main-battle-tank/?p=133432

    WTF that looked like I cannot guess...
    That was from Spielberger, alongside even mentions of potential advantages in elevation with all the recoil gubbins stripped out. Further rambling on the theme on that thread.




    The essential real-world conclusion re squeezing 88s into the contemporary generation of German mediums does seem to have eventually been 'why bother?' though.
    As Gaines implies, it's not like the HV 75s they were already quite good at fitting were really inadequate pieces for the day. Simplification perhaps can be said to have been more tempting than further struggles with enlarged BFGs.
     
  8. ww24interest

    ww24interest Member

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    The tanks that had the 88 were the Tiger, Tiger II, Nash-horn, elephant and Jagdpanther anything else was prototype.
     

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