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"Crossing the T' at the Surigao Strait

Discussion in 'Naval Warfare in the Pacific' started by ww2thebigone, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. ww2thebigone

    ww2thebigone Member

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    RichTO90 and Otto like this.
  2. the_diego

    the_diego Member

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    question: with radar, or even without, how can you tell which shell splashes are yours when you're firing along a line of four (five?) battleships at only one target?
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    With radar, you do not normally concern yourself with shell splashes, but remain focused on the radar range and azimuth to your "hard" target, ie. enemy warship. In this case, some of the OBBs had the older inferior Mark 3 Fire Control Radar, and the only way they could develop a firing solution was to fire using the range and azimuth generated from other OBB's shell splashes. Basiscally, they shot were everybody else was shooting in hopes of hitting something.

    When shooting under visual conditions w/o radar. Larger shells had dye bags to color their shell splashes and each ship would be assigned a different color - with one ship's shells possibly having no dye bags, thus giving it a normal "white" splash.
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    That's racist!

    :dance3:
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEAVYdA4zdM
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Given the range and the rate of fire it's possible to get an idea when your shells will splash down. I think I've read that during the Bismarck episode one of the two pairs of British capital ships had agreed that one would fire on the minute the other on the half minute to facilitate this. From some readings of the Surigao strait engagement the splashes got dense enough that it wasn't always obvious whose was whose.
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    If the fire was that dense it would hardly matter, now wouldn't it?
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    As long as most were centered on the target no. At the river Plat I've read that the British had a spotter plane up that was using splashes from one cruiser to "correct" the aim of one of the others. That sort of thing could happen. At Surigao the shooting was pretty good though from what I've read. For those who haven't seen it here's a write up of the gunnery there although it's fairly old so may need some updating:
    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-079.htm
    Yamashiro does seam to have held up well to the number of hits reported certainly better than Kirishima did.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Also, at the Battle of Dogger Bank, the new HMS Tiger mistook the shell splashes of HMS Lion as her own, and consequently her gunfire was landing well beyond SMS Seydlitz.


    Well, Yamashiro actually was a battleship, whereas, Kirishima was a battlecruiser - although, the Japanese considered her a "fast battleship."
     
  10. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    Read that the Japanese used a lot of colour. Had not thought the US also used...At night, the colours could not be seen. ..Wouldn't the advantage go to the US, with radar spotting the splashes?
    Would the bridge ask for coloured shell, or was colour incorporated with all shells?...this ship gets this colour, that ship another...
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The Americans, British, French, and Japanese all used dye in their large caliber shells. IIRC, the French even used dye in their destroyer shells.


    Dye was incorporated in all shells. This ship gets one color, that ship another.
     
  12. the_diego

    the_diego Member

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    an actual hit with a shell that contains a dye bag should give funny results. but it's just my sense of humor acting up.
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The men of the USS Atlanta did not think so.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The colored shells were delivered to the ships by the supply system. Once a color was assigned to a ship she kept it, because otherwise there was a danger of a ship having a "mixed bag" of shells.
     
  15. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    Interesting...Would all the shell's in a salvo have colour, or only 1...Would colour effect the effectiveness of a shell- remove some explosive to accommodate colour?
     
  16. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Same color for all the shells fired from a ship. If you see eight green splashes in a group and one way over yonder, you know you have a problem with one of the guns. And we're only talking about a few pounds of chemicals, so no real effect on the power supplied to the shell.
     
  17. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    That would be awesome to see. Is there any colourized footage (even written accounts) that show the coloured splashes. ..Imagine terrified sailors being menaced by the colours of the rainbow (see what i did there, Ben).
     
  18. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Imagine them seeing three or four different colours splashing all around them?

    (See what I did there, Poppy?)
     
  19. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    Pardon...was referring to Ben's posts about how the left are in revolt about trump...i'd hoped to make a point about people dying in WW2 in order that snowflakes today can make a 'statement' about how unfair life is now.
    i failed
     
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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