Danish cartoons and freedom

There may have been other posts on the subject but if so I missed it.
I just want to go on the record and state that I support the Danes right to free speech and freedom of expression without intimidation or threats of violence being used to try and silence them. The US governments response was kind of lukewarm thus I would also point out that as far as I know many if not most Americans feel the same way.(I see signs of support like Support Free Speech Buy Danish signs and bumper stickers appearing already) Despite the initial statements I think the uS government has since expressed it's support also.
IMO this issue speaks to the very heart of what the West should stand for; especially the US who claims to stand for freedom, the right of a person to express themselves peaceably and without incitement to violence. No matter that some may disagree with the speech or expression, they also have the right to express themselves, through words not by resorting to violence and intimidation.
This issue is as important as anything being done in Iraq and Afghanistan and we should be uncompromising in our support for the rights of free men everywhere.

 

Thanks, Grieg. It really is nice to know, that other countries have your back in issues like these.

 

good to see your support

 

The view of a US commentator:

THE ‘CARTOON RIOTS’:
BIGOTS ON BOTH SIDES

By RALPH PETERS

RIOTS scorch the Islamic world as maddened believers protest Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed. Embassies burn, demonstrators die, crazed threats resound. Far more Muslims fill the streets than protested the invasion of Iraq.

Astonished Europeans insist on their right to press freedom. Muslims are outraged at the willful violation of a widespread Islamic belief: The Prophet's image must not be depicted.

Now the confrontation's gone too far for either side to back down. And both sides are wrong.

First, consider the Europeans. The Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons last September was not standing up courageously for freedom of expression. The editors and cartoonists were so oblivious to any reality beyond their Copenhagen coffee bars that they just thought they were pulling an attention-getting prank.

They got attention, all right. As did the papers elsewhere in Europe that reprinted the offending cartoons last week. In the name of press freedom, of course.

The problem is that with freedom comes responsibility, a quality to which Europe's become allergic (nothing is ever a European's fault). Breaking a well-known taboo of Islam was irresponsible. No other word for it.

There's plenty to criticize in the failed civilization of Middle Eastern Islam. But the European press avoids the serious issues. They could've run cartoons about al-Zarqawi's savagery, al-Jazeera's hypocrisy or the oppression of women. Instead, they attacked a religion's heart. Gratuitously.

Those cartoons said more about Europe's own arrogance toward religious believers and intolerance of faith than they do about Islam. Today's Europeans consider religious belief as beneath their sophistication. They've come so far that they no longer grasp how intense faith can be — and how furiously the faithful can react.

Through their clumsiness and vanity, the Europeans have made this an all-or-nothing issue. What began as a nasty little Danish problem has been globalized. If the Europeans appear to capitulate now, it will only encourage Muslim extremists around the world.

Wasn't it those oh-so-clever Europeans who complained about a heavy U.S. hand in the Middle East? Who made excuses for 9/11, the Madrid bombings, street murders, terrorist kidnappings and beheadings, the London bombings, French suburbs aflame and no end of hate speech? Then treated Islam the way a dog treats a fire hydrant?

That's Europe for you: A continent of cowards who start fights they can't finish themselves. Thanks, Hans. Merci, Pierre.

Of course, the blame doesn't fall solely on the Eurotrash. The over-reaction within the Muslim world is psychotic — yet another indication of the spiritual and practical collapse of the Middle East and realms beyond. Will the Europeans figure it out this time? How many corpses, cracked heads, arrests, boycotts and smoldering embassies will it take before Europe realizes that militant Islam isn't benign?

The Arab world, especially, is a pile of tinder waiting for random sparks. And the alacrity with which regional governments and Islamist groups have moved to blow up the cartoon issue into a conflagration is as tactically astute as it is despicable.

What we're seeing in the Middle East is strategic theater, benefit performances for the Syrian government (now playing the Islam card), Hezbollah, Hamas and every tough customer in the neighborhood.

No accident that the largest number of demonstrators busted in Beirut were Syrian nationals. And does anyone really believe that Syria's police and security services couldn't control those crowds in Damascus?

Meanwhile, the nuts-for-Allah boys in Tehran are using the issue to whip up support for Shia nukes. Kashmiri separatists are milking the controversy, as are the remnants of the Taliban in Afghanistan. The protests stretch from Indonesia to England.

Expect more blood.

It's hard not to feel a certain amount of Schadenfreude after enduring endless lectures from Europeans about how the Middle East's problems were all made in America. It will be fascinating to watch the Europeans attempt to come to grips with fanaticism.

Even a French philosopher can't forever glorify a civilization that puts more energy into calling for death to cartoonists than it does into human rights, education or good government.

For once, we Americans can sit back and watch the fight (pass the popcorn, please). The Europeans are going to get a few more teeth knocked out. As for the Islamist bigots intent on destroying what's left of their own decayed societies, they'll lose at least a few of their European apologists — the sort who make excuses for terrorists, as long as they only kill Americans (or Muslims).

Looking at the pigheaded intolerance driving the Europeans and Islamist fanatics alike, the healthy response is, "A plague on both your houses."

I think that there's a lot of truth in what he said, although IMO the USA can't distance itself from its share of responsibility for why the Muslim world is so anti-Western, and so sensitive to any slights.

The Danish paper unfortunately seems to have been guilty of double standards:

Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons

Gwladys Fouché
Monday February 6, 2006

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.

Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

The illustrator said: "I see the cartoons as an innocent joke, of the type that my Christian grandfather would enjoy."

"I showed them to a few pastors and they thought they were funny."

But the Jyllands-Posten editor in question, Mr Kaiser, said that the case was "ridiculous to bring forward now. It has nothing to do with the Muhammad cartoons.

"In the Muhammad drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons. That's the difference," he said.

"The illustrator thought his cartoons were funny. I did not think so. It would offend some readers, not much but some."

The decision smacks of "double-standards", said Ahmed Akkari, spokesman for the Danish-based European Committee for Prophet Honouring, the umbrella group that represents 27 Muslim organisations that are campaigning for a full apology from Jyllands-Posten.

"How can Jyllands-Posten distinguish the two cases? Surely they must understand," Mr Akkari added.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

Wrong. Nowhere does the Koran state that it is not allowed to depict Mohammed. Furthermore, Mohammed has been frequently depicted, in books and drawings, in the Middle East.

Shows what he knows. As the name clearly states, Jyllands-Posten is from Jutland, where its main office is also located. Furthermore, the drawings were a response to a childrens book being published about the Koran, where the author was unable to find a single illustrator.

He seems to be forgetting that Denmark has troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Oh, and by the way, what's all this nonsense about double standards? Life of Brian seemed to be excellent in making a mockery of the new testament.

 

Wow - he may have a kernal of truth in there, but he really does have an agenda to push

One comment:

Not necessarily - we can only judge that if we see the cartoons in question. The ones of Jesus were judged to be unfunny and offensive - maybe they were.

It is not as if there have not been many, many depictions of Jesus, God etc in cartoons before, many decidedly unflattering.

 

A regional Danish newspaper should not have to stand before the judgment of the entire Islamic world for a few quite unoffensive cartoons of a person who has been dead for 1300 years. Yes, this is the non-religious view. However it is outrageous that anyone would even consider these cartoons a serious and intentional jab at Islam as a whole, or anything that has to do with it, because that's simply way out of their league. Hence the article Tony posted is wrong: Jyllands-Posten cannot be required to keep in mind everyone who might ever be offended by their cartoons or anything else they publish, not only because it's impossible to make cartoons without offending at least someone, but also because it's not realistic to assume that people way out in Indonesia will take offence.

Like Christian already mentioned, the argument that it's not allowed to depict the Prophet was invented; such a thing is not in the Koran. Besides, would the entire Islamic world rise in outrage if a little kid in Islamic school were to scribble a stick figure Mohammed in the margin of his homework? Yes, I'm aware that this is not a good analogy because we're talking about an openly published newspaper here, not a private document. On the other hand, anyone could scribble a stick figure Mohammed on a wall in Tehran or anywhere, for millions to see. Would the Muslim world riot over that? In short, saying the Muslims should not be offended by breaking this taboo is nonsensical; there is no taboo, and if there were one, it's about time it was broken.

For once I completely agree with Grieg: freedom of speech and press is truly an achievement of the west, as is secularization, and both should be defended by the West against whatever pressure the Muslim world may apply. Is it an outrage that a regional Danish newspaper publishes a few cartoons of Mohammed the Prophet? No. Why would it be? Because some holy book says so? It doesn't, and even if it did, whether or not a Western democratic country respects the word of that holy book is not up to Syrian or Indonesian Muslims to decide. Is it an outrage that embassies are burned, diplomatic immunity is violated, and people are wounded and killed in the process, over a few scribbles by Danish cartoonists? Yes, yes it is.

Edit: A Dutch populist politician has recently, in a wave of partisan spirit, posted the Danish cartoons on his website. My newspaper reported yesterday that the man has recieved no less than forty death threats in two days for doing so. Forty. Death threats. Something's wrong.

 

IIRC there is a big thing against idols in the Koran, and Islamic Art has traditionally been made up of geometric shapes & words to avoid any hint of drawing a picture of a living creature, just in case...

However that does seem to have changed somewhat nowadays.

 

The original cartoon sound like they were in dubious taste* but the response has been unjustified. In my own opinion there is no organisation that is beyond criticism, reproach or even satire not even a religion.**








*no I haven't seen them.
**Personally I dislike a distrust religion in general and anything I write in relation to religion should be taken in that context.

 

I have not seen them either - from what I have read on the BBC they included images of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban (hmm... :-? ) and one of him complaining that Paradise is running out of virgins for all the martyrs (actually mildly amusing)


An interesting read...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4686164.stm

There is an incredible set of articles on this on the BBC - I'm amazed that it is such a big fuss. :roll:

 

For those who want to see them, here's a link.

http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php?op ... &Itemid=74

Clearly they are not in dubious taste at all; some of them even comment on the shallow nature of the cartoons themselves or the opportunism displayed by those who make them.

 

The ten commandmends (which are recognized by Islam) forbids other gods, but nowhere is it forbidden to depict humans (including Mohammed). Furthermore, the drawings which I've seen from ilsamic books show perfectly recognizable humans, including Mohammed.
Have a look here: http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

 

At least we (a bunch of western athiests) seem to agree.
They were merely cartoons, never intended to be read by anyone who could take offense.
Cartoons are jokes, crude and/or rude and/or lame as they may be, they are NOT designed to be insults.
Therefore it was his good right to make those cartoons, and the paper had the right to publish them.
How can one even bring on the item of freedom of speech?, it was not even an opinion.
Even I as a complete atheist have issues about which I'd never like to hear or see jokes, or any negative comments.
But even if that would occur I would NOT burst out like this.
Threatening to kill someone and burning ambassies are not signs of civilization.
If all the muslim leaders would have sent complaints or diplomaticly correct warnings that these cartoons are not appreciated, that would have been a decent response.
However with things having turned out as they have I can only draw 1 of 3 conclusions and leave muslims to show me which is correct.
1 The islam are a bunch of savages who will take any excuse to run amok. (I do not prefer this one, but it is reinforced to badly to exclude)
2 The cartoons are merely an excuse to unleash a lot of anger caused by other issues. (regardless of how related these issues are)
3 They all have eaten something bad, or slept bad.. heck I don't know, but they are simply overreacting and it'll all blow over when someone apologises.

Yes I know that not every Muslim is now threatening to cut off the head of the next laughing westerner he sees, but with complete countries where the islam is the main religion in a fit, I think it's safe to say that the majority of muslims is on the side that disagrees with the cartoons.

 

Sorry, it is more of a 'public' art thing - on buildings etc.

"Figures and animals :
Because the creation of living things that move -- that is, humans and animals -- is considered to be in the realm of God, Islam discourages artists from producing such figures through art. Nevertheless, a certain amount of figural art can be found in the Islamic world, although it is mainly confined to the decoration of objects and secular buildings and to miniature paintings. Figural sculpture is quite rare in Islam."

from http://www.islamicart.com/main/architec ... orate.html

 

Well, those cartoons were printed in several newspapers here(mainly in order to show solidarity with the danish paper) and I must say that I consider them to be of a very bad taste....
For the same reason, I will probably not like the cartoons ridiculizing the Holocaust some iranian paper ordered and challenged the european media to print.

But that being said, we have freedom of press in Europe so that danish paper acted in it's good right.Any calls from the muslim world for european politicians to excuse for the cartoons are absolutely ridiculous and should be left unanswered.
The actual anti-european hate campaign in the western world has in my view been mainly orchestrated by radicals who seek to show their muscle.
For example, there is that cartoon portraying Mohammed as a pig.That cartoon is a fake, used by islamists to increase the fury of the people.

Anyway, as soon as we heard that some islamic countries were ordering a boycott of danish products, we sponteaneously decided to order some Carlsberg beer at the pub yesterday....
Can anyone recomend me some other good danish products??

 

Ricky
At the link I provided, you will find noumerous drawings, including some in various books, depicting both humans in general and Mohammed specifically.

Castelot
Lurpak butter and Danish bacon are traditional favorites. Other products include Danish chees and LEGO bricks.

Keep up drinking Carlsberg too - an enjoyable way to buy Danish Cheers!

 

Castelot - I heartily recommend Danish bacon.

 

The fury has indeed been orchestrated by Islamists. It's not the drawings by themselves, they have been used as an excuse by these Islamists. On a similar note I was talking to a girl from Egypt the other day, and I was shocked by what she could tell me was printed in Egyptian newspapers about how Muslims were persecuted by Christians in Europe. The Islamists propaganda machine is running at full power these days, and it's hard to tell what they are expecting to achieve.

Jyllands-Posten printed these drawings for all the right reasons. Maybe some people find them unfunny, I didn't laugh much at them myself, but people have different taste in humour and this is satire. Satire don't necessarily have to be that funny, it's main purpose is to attack established 'thruths' and other questionable phenomena in soceity. I see the act of Jyllands-Posten as made in the spirit of men like Voltaire and Holberg. Lacking the quality of these giants perhaps, but equally important.

I finally want to draw attention to an event which took place outside the Norwegian parlament last Monday afternoon. A small group of muslims ( refugees from Iran, Iraq and Kurds ) arranged a demonstration in support of the freedom of expression. 'No to political Islam' were one of their paroles. Perhaps this small group is not representative for Islam, but I think it's of the uttermost importance that we start supporting these people instead of appeasing the aggressive and violent Islamists.

 

I agree. BTW Welcome back, Skua!

 

That's the spirit, I'd join those people, hand in hand.
I like castelots idea as well, Danish bacon sounds yummy.
(Should Holland for any reason be banned some day give me the adress and a few bucks and I'll send all the beer (or other goods you want ))