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DD vs. DE

Discussion in 'United States at Sea!' started by Carronade, Feb 3, 2024.

  1. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    When “light” or “escort” destroyers were proposed, there was considerable opposition within the Navy, largely on the grounds that standard DDs could be built just as quickly - or more so - and would be more capable overall. It’s a valid argument, but a couple of points in the DE program suggest it might not have been so easy:

    Most escort destroyer proposals included 5” guns, but the majority of DEs had 3”. This is usually attributed to difficulty in providing sufficient 5” guns, but we were able to give some 40 auxiliary ships - tenders, repair ships, and the first dozen or so Cimarron class oilers - destroyer-style armament - four 5”/38s, Mark 37 gunfire control system.

    DEs were intended to have destroyer-type geared steam turbines, but this was only able to be done in the last of six classes; most had diesel, diesel-electric, or turbo-electric propulsion. As I understand, the bottleneck was reduction gears, which might have been as bad or worse for 60,000shp destroyer plants.

    Escort destroyers were often thought of as low-cost alternatives to real DDs, but the DE was a significantly superior anti submarine ship, with heavier depth charge batteries and the Hedgehog. Of course these could have been fitted in DDs in lieu of some guns or torpedoes.
     
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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  3. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    From the General Board Sep 1940 meeting:

    upload_2024-2-26_17-40-31.png
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  4. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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  5. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    Cont:
    upload_2024-2-26_17-57-4.png

    upload_2024-2-26_17-57-50.png
     
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  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'll gen up a smooth copy of that.
     
  7. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    There is more! Ran out of time yesterday. Auxiliaries were mentioned with respect to armament, especially the rushed into service national defense oilers; CIMMERONS. You can't beat this chapter of Gray Steel and Black Oil: HyperWar: Gray Steel and Black Oil [Chapter 10]

    Continuing with the General Board deliberations on escort ships that fall. From the 24 Sep 40 meeting.

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  8. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    24 Sep 40 Cont.

    upload_2024-2-27_9-46-34.png

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    upload_2024-2-27_9-50-35.png
     
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  9. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    It's a long one! Still more. Offering no editorial. I think those members not liking the mid class of vessel between 165 and 1,600 tons are evident.

    upload_2024-2-27_9-53-1.png

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  10. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    The Board continued its deliberation a month later, now with CNO and legislative direction.
    upload_2024-2-27_10-23-2.png

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  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I agree. I digitized Grey Steel and Black Oil.
     
  12. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    Last few on what became the DE.

    upload_2024-2-27_10-35-29.png

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  13. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    To finish out the GB escort discussions that fall, here is the 1,200-ton escort conversion meeting of 5 December 1940.

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  14. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    And finally, the last ones. One thing noticeable is the absence of RADM King. He had just taken over the Patrol Force, which became the Atlantic Fleet on 1 February 1941. Opana will be busy now! Keeps you young.

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  15. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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    Oops, one last OBTW.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. USNA1991

    USNA1991 New Member

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  17. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

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    Tighter turning radius which made the DE more nimble for ASE warfare.
     
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  18. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    DE's were a good choice when there was no enemy air threats. The AAA suite was reduced, but not completely gone. Roughly five DEs to four DDs production rate. (Been a good long while since I saw those numbers, feel free to shoot me if needed.)
     
  19. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Antiaircraft armament is an interesting question. Depending on a nation's specific situation, there may be large areas like the western Atlantic that require antisubmarine escort but have little air threat (this would also have been true of much of the Pacific if the Japanese had made extensive use of their long-range subs against our sea lines of communication). Effective AA armament generally meant at least four 4-5" dual-purpose guns, ideally power-operated, and a sophisticated gunfire control system, which could add considerable cost and complexity to what was supposed to be an economical escort.
     
  20. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I was driver for RAdm Grace Hopper one day* and she told me she had worked briefly on a project have all available ships guns controlled from a central system. The technology of the day wasn't up to it. I think that still pissed her off nearly forty years later. ;-)



    *She was in San Diego to dedicate the new Super Computer Center on North Island.
     

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