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Defeat Of Germany In WW2 Was Possible Without U.S. Help, Russia Says

Discussion in 'WWII Today' started by BeeGeesOne, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. BeeGeesOne

    BeeGeesOne New Member

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  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Good motivation to invent a time machine.
     
  3. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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    The polls may illustrate today's thinking, but if it was true, why did Stalin beg for the Western Allies to open another front to relieve pressure on the Russians?
     
  4. BeeGeesOne

    BeeGeesOne New Member

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    Good point. I would love to know what Churchill and Roosevelt would have said had they known that 70 years later, the Russians think they could have done it all themselves without them.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Response: The Western Allies stalled until the Soviet people had the Fascists on the run. We could have finished them off without help by June 1944.
     
  6. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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    Bagration and D-Day occurred nearly simultaneously. Had there been no landings in France, forcing Hitler to divide his forces. those troops probably would have gone East. That might have made a difference. Hindsight is always 20-20.
     
  7. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member Patron  

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    If a similar poll were held here in the US I would guess at least half of American's would conclude that the US could defeat Germany alone as well.

    I agree both points were possible, but unlikely. For the US I can not see the public accepting the sacrifice needed long term, nor do I see the Atomic Bomb being the deciding factor so long as Germany could retaliate with Gas/Biological weapons on Britain/France. In effect we would pretty much have to be on the German frontier before we could use that weapon and by that point Germany would be largely defeated already.

    As for the Soviet Union, I hate to cast aspersions, but they seemed to be at a disadvantage when engaging German forces. Looking at the relative casualties and equipment losses it seems it was not till the last year of the war that they were able to reach parity or a net positive consistently. By any measure the Red Army was very brave and resilient, but not terribly skilled unit for unit. If you exclude Allied Lend-Lease this becomes even more problematic. It is not so much Tanks and Planes, but much more mundane items like Boots, Radio's and Motor Transport that fuel advances. Absent them Soviet Offensives would never have been as effective as they historically were, costing far greater casualties in the Red Army.

    If Lend-Lease equaled 10-15% of Soviet war 'industry', could they accept 10-15% higher losses across the board? Possibly, but throw in the total Western threat (invasion, Strategic Bomber campaign, Battle of the Atlantic etc.) Germany might have thrown in another 10-20% of their war material into the East, which only adds to the Soviet burden.

    My guess is that they would fight each other to a standstill somewhere between the 1939 and 1940 Soviet border with German skill and technology balanced against Soviet Manpower and industry.
     
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  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    True, but remember we're talking emotion here, not logic. I met a college professor from Russia who had been taught that D-Day was a raid, not a multi-divisional invasion, when he was in school. I gave him an atlas of the war.

    I counted them up one time, 95 "divisions" on the coast from Norway right around to Greece. Without the western threat a good number of those would indeed have been free for Ostfront duty.
     
  9. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Divisions per front as of June 1:

    1940 - 149 West, 7 East, 11 Germany
    1941 - 75 West, 96 East, 38 Germany
    1942 - 46 West, 187 East, 2 Germany
    1943 - 83 West, 194 East, 5 Germany
    1944 - 129 West, 162 East, 7 Germany

    As of 1 June 1943, of the 42 Panzer, Panzergrenadier, and Infanterie-Division (mot) organized, 14 were in the West and 28 were in the East. As of 1 June 1944, of the 47 organized, 20 were in the West, 26 were in the East, 1 was in Germany.

    Luftwaffe deployments were even more skewed to the West, while probably 90% or more of the Kriegsmarine were occupied in the West.
     
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  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I was just counting the ones directly on the coast. Not a scientific survey.
     
  11. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Great point
     
  12. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Active Member

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    At Tehran didn't Stalin toast the US manufacturing capacity and say the United Nations could not win without it?
     
  13. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Active Member

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    The more the Allies furthered operations in the West, the more the Soviets were able to advance and push the Germans back. From the end of 1942 though the MTO campaigns and the bomber offensive, then add the invasion of France. The more the West pushed it and forced Germany to bring back divisions and materiel, the better the Russians were able to do, especially from 1944 on.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    No doubt that was quashed like MacArthur's demands for Soviet invasion of Kyushu.
     
  15. harolds

    harolds Member

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    I would have to agree with belasar that Lend Lease enabled the Soviets to field a modern mobile army that could defeat the Wehrmacht. Without the trucks and related materials they wouldn't have been able to carry out the deep thrusts that characterized Soviet offensives in the last two years of the war. Another Lend-Lease item that receives little attention is the good quality telephone wire that enabled the Red Army to have secure communications. In the early years of the war the Germans were able to eavesdrop on Soviet radio traffic and gained much useful intelligence that was used to predict future Red Army moves. By June of '44 the Germans were unable to know the time and place of Bagration.

    For those of you counting German divisions you might also remember that up until Rommel took command of Army Group B, most good Heer units had gone east, leaving second-rate fortress police divisions in the West. In 1943 many of the PzDivs in the West were just there to refit and accept replacements so that they could be returned to the East. I suspect that the infantry divisions in Germany were there for the same reasons.
     
  16. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    I know, I just hadn't revisited the subject for some time and wanted to lay it out again.
     
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  17. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    A very complex subject of endless debate...imported chemicals, especially toluene were very important as well.

    It's a bit more complex than that. The original occupation divisions were the 17 300-series divisions of the 13. and 14. Welle raised in October and November 1940 and the 15 700-series divisions of the 15. Welle raised in May 1941. Many of the 300-series were upgraded later as were some of the 700-series and were used as regular divisions. They were not technically "fortress divisions", but they had limited mobility. Nor were they "police" formations. Policing operations were the purview of the Landeschuetzen that were part of the occupation forces, along with the Gestapo and Feldgendarmerie. Otherwise, France was used as a training and refitting site and was critical to maintaining forces in the East...the six-odd Reserve-Divisionen stationed there doubled as occupation and training troops, cycling up to 18,000-recruits per division at a time from the German Wehrkreis. Then, of course, a large number of divisions in Italy from mid-1943 on were first class.
     
  18. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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    Everyone is arguing facts and logic to illustrate points for both sides. However, I think Larry has a valid point. Both supporters of the Western Allies and supporters of Russia seem to forget the importance of emotion. What each side believes to be true is just as important as the marshaling of facts.
     
  19. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I find that a very post-"alternative fact" point of view. It is the major reason why what passes as "what ifs" are so useless and usually devolve to slanging matches. "Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." - Carl Sagan
     
  20. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The people polled were average Russians, right? Which means they are like average Americans, appallingly ignorant of history. They answered based on their patriotic views, the da Rodina could whip anybody, no help needed. The poll is a survey of emotions about the Great Patriotic War, not about the reality of the war.

    "I find that a very post-"alternative fact" point of view" No, I'm not lying.
     

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