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Did Hitler want to win the war?

Discussion in 'WWII Today' started by JuanMaddox, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. JuanMaddox

    JuanMaddox New Member

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    A fairly dumb title. But I can't understand something here. Why would the Nazis waste so much resources and time on the final solution and the Holocaust instead of winning the war.

    Surely if the goal was to win the war, it would be to enslave all of Jews and all other enemies to obtain more resources to fuel the likelihood of winning the war. Then to execute all of them or let them die during the abuse.

    But instead he decides to waste lots of resource. It seemed like Hitler prioritys was to kill all the enemies like the Jews rather then to win the war.

    **Edit by Otto: to remove spammy links, this poster is a spammer out of India. There is far too much quality content here to delete the thread outright.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2020
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Hitler was not a grand strategist, so he did what he thought was needed to be done. Luckily for Western Civilization he didn't have the skills to win. Add to that the megalomania that caused him to override his advisors. He was just a yutz that managed to get into position where the Peter Principle reached out and killed him.
     
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  3. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    I can't claim to understand Hitler's thought process, but he seems to have had multiple objectives and been unwilling to forego some in order to prioritize others. His program was more ideological than practical; he wanted not just to win but to win the "right" way, by putting his National Socialist principles into effect.

    Apart from the moral depravity, anti-Jewish measures were a waste even before the Final Solution. Large-scale war is fundamentally a contest of economies - something else Hitler failed to understand - and Jews were normal, contributing members of society: workers, farmers, businessmen, soldiers, etc. Hitler's policies removed about 1% of the German workforce and had greater impact in the occupied countries whose economies could be harnessed to support the German war effort. Of course labor would need to be directed to war-related projects, but it should not require mass enslavement or abuse, nor was there any reason to treat Jews differently from the rest of the population.

    Aside from the Jews, I'm struck by the fate of several million Russian POWs, most captured in 1941. These were able-bodied men, and the Nazis could think of nothing better to do with them than kill them or let them starve or freeze to death.
     
  4. harolds

    harolds Member

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    All the above are good comments! Let me add that Hitler had a fantastic ability to delude himself. His comments re. the cohesion of the USSR ("All we have to do is kick the door in and the whole house of cards will collapse"). and the might of the USA are cases in point. Halder commented in his diaries that Hitler's ability to think rationally was going downhill throughout the war. Part of this could be his frequent use of Pervitin, a methamphetamine. Not only did it give him extra energy before speeches and meetings with his generals, it also would elevate his sense of grandiosity.

    Re. the Red Army PoWs: As far as I know, I don't think there was any real thought about what to do with a million or more prisoners. There were no camps for them at first, no food, transportation, or even guards! They were just pointed west and told to march thataway! Many peeled off and joined the partisans. Within the prisoners was a Soviet general who hated Stalin and wanted to fight for the Germans and brought his army with him! This could have been an excellent weapon against the partisans but Hitler wouldn't use them.
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The Holocaust didn't waste any resources worth mentioning, it was a shoestring operation, the Germans were very good at doing things cheaply.
    For example, the Warsaw Ghetto (almost half a million people) was "deported" by a single old train and about 50 Germans. Although they needed 2 months for that.

    Germany gained a lot thanks to the Holocaust although some (important to them) gains were illusory.
    From Hitler's point of view: it removed the security threat presented by the Jewish population the so-called Jewish fifth column, saved lots of desperately needed food, exacted vengeance on people who brought war on Germany.
    The confiscated Jewish property was allocated to bombed-out Germans, that greatly contributed to their wartime morale.

    Not all Jews were killed. The so-called productive, "useful" Jews weren't - they were sent to work.
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'm sure Hitler didn't understand the Soviet republics' attitude that "we can fight each other, but we'll all fight someone who fights one of us."
     
  7. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Considering the eagerness and speed the liberated by the Germans republics and nationalities (the Baltic states, Ukraine, the Crimean Tatars, the Chechens, others) joined Germany, it wasn't entirely true.
    People (even Poles) generally welcomed the Germans with relief, although many changed their minds later.
    The Russians fought - the others were mostly indifferent, especially the Asiatic republics, it wasn't their war.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Minorities in the USSR, like some of the Cossacks, went over to the Germans in the hopes of gaining independence after the war.
     
  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Ultimately, Hitler thought winning against the Soviet Union would be like his victory in France; quick and easy. His desire to see his way to victory was separate from his attitude toward the Jews and others he felt were "untermenschen". As far back as 1923 Hitler felt that Jews worldwide were an an enemy that needed to be exterminated. It was spelled out explicitly in Mein Kampf.
    He thought that going to war against the Soviets would show the way for Britain to sue for peace so he could concentrate his efforts eastward. His desire to use Ukraine to feed the German population led him and those in position to help him design a program for mass starvation that would allow him to to gain the "lebensraum" he desired. After reading The Wages of Destruction it seems as though Hitler wanted to win at all costs, even if it meant the extermination of millions.
     
  10. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Few valuable resources were used...And Hitler had to speed up his time line on the final solution and get it done before he lost the ability to...
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    You cannot separate 'racial policy' from Nazism.
    Our version of logic doesn't come into it. If you're the Nazi party, after Wansee, then the policy has equal weight to any war aims.

    They might even say the war provided a splendid opportunity to accelerate the atrocities. Much easier to behave like murderous animals under cover of occupation & other war-related chaos. You also gain territories to carry out more organised death projects like the camps some distance away from your home population.
     
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  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Actually, till the end of 1939 the Nazis cooperated with Jewish groups in their efforts to transfer as many German Jews to Palestine as possible - with their wealth mostly intact.
    Till the end of 1941, the plan was to expel the Jews from occupied Europe.
    Till the end of 1941, Jewish emigration from Germany and occupied Poland was allowed.
     
  13. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Megalomaniacs gonna megalomania, and megalomaniacs with unlimited power are going to bring millions down with them.

    .
     
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  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    And the reason people were fleeing Nazi Germany was...
     
  15. harolds

    harolds Member

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    I think Hitler wanted to win the war but it was a case that HE wanted to win it. In other words, it was to be his "fantastic" genius that did it and no one else's. I've read that one of the reasons for the stop order before Dunkirk was that up until that point the Generals were making all the calls and he needed to do something that would show his true genius and not give the hated and distrusted generals all the credit. While Hitler pretty much left the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe alone, he took more and more control over the Heer, eventually becoming head of the Heer, but not the other two services. I think history has fairly well made its judgement on the extent of his military "genius".
    (An elaboration of KB's last post.+
     
  16. Jack B

    Jack B Active Member Patron  

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    Certain dates come to mind: '33, '35, '38 to start with......

    It is simply outrageous to represent the Nazis as being helpful and 'cooperative'. I appreciate a balanced view, but this is just so much revisionist horse-shite.

    "Haavara, agency set up to execute the Germany-Palestine transfer agreement which aided Jewish refugees in taking a portion of their capital out of the Reich, announced today that it is winding up its operations since the basis of its existence has been removed. The agency was organized in Nov., 1933, and in the period ending June 30, 1939, handled transfers totalling 105,000,000 marks (about $35,000,000)." -- JTA archives

    "One of the German authorities’ principal goals in negotiating with the Zionist movement was to fragment the Jewish boycott of German goods. Although in retrospect we know the boycott had only a marginal effect on German economic development in the 1930s, at the time it was perceived as a genuine threat. Correspondence between Heinrich Wolff, the German consul in Palestine, and the German Foreign Ministry shows that shattering the boycott was a key motive for the German authorities in concluding the Transfer Agreement." -- The Transfer Agreement and the Boycott Movement: A Jewish Dilemma on the Eve of the Holocaust, Yf’aat Weiss

    "After Germany invaded Poland in September 1939, triggering World War II, the regime set up ghettos to segregate Jews from the rest of the population. Eventually thousands of camps and other detention sites were established across German-occupied Europe." -- wiki

    Hitler ended the Haavara agreement in '39 after extorting $35M in sales to Palestine while attempting to run German Jews out of Germany. I'm sure there were some German Jews who were quite pleased to get out of Germany, no matter what the cost. But there is no way I could characterize the Nazis as being 'cooperative'. Apologetic dross.

    'Stupid' works for me. 'Intolerant', 'malign', 'bigoted' and 'moronic' also ring true. 'Helpful or 'cooperative'....not so much.
     
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  17. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    I wrote cooperated, cooperated doesn't mean "helpful and cooperative." You've hearing things that weren't said.
    Both sides pursued different goals, but better such a collaboration than nothing.

    The Haavara agreement was one of the pillars of Israel. Strangely Jewish fanatics murdered the man responsible for the agreement - Haim Arlosoroff. The agreement that saved 60,000 Jews from the Holocaust.
     
  18. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The reason was they were enemies of the Nazis and faced persecution and death: the communists/socialists/nationalists/labor leaders/religious leaders.
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Oh! Okay, thanks.
     
  20. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ....Wannsee was Jan 1942? Stalingrad ended Feb 1943? and the Germans had been doing a ''little'' genocide actions already? so, add it up...the Germans were doing very, very well in 1940, 1941, and into late 42-so, since they were doing so well, hilter thought all was in hand..they had enough resources for everything ....they really didn't start going downhill until after Feb 1943...
    .....they initiated the Holocaust long before they started going downhill --once they started going downhill ''fast'', I'm sure the sensible ones knew they were wasting resoruces --by then it was too late to stop--obviously hitler was not one of the sensible ones
     

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