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Disgusting behavior from the US President and the UK PM.

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by RAM, Jul 6, 2014.

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  1. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Not many, only some Russians...

    It was Russia's fault that they needed the Orange revolution, since it was Russia and Putin's sticky fingers which were supporting the criminals in power. Without Russia's influence and blackmailing the Ukrainian democracy would have had a better chance.
    It's not a civil war. It's a war between Ukraine and Russia. Russia is only using the local fifth column in East Ukraine to cover her actions.

    That's nothing new, since the USSR did exactly same thing and tried to use Finnish communists in the Winter War by founding the "People's Government of Finland" to beg and receive military "help" from the friendly soviets - and failed spectacularly...

    The country is not split in "half. The Russian terrorists did occupy less than two provinces at most, which covered something like 9 % of the total area of Ukraine and 14 % of the population - except that not all supported the pro-Russians and even less this kind of terrorism.

    Not many Ukrainians want to "be with Russia" any more. That's history now - thanks to Putin.
    Except the ex-president and his regime forged the elections. The democratic process did not work in a dictatorship - like it doesn't work in Russia either.
    It's not the local people there who are revolting - it's the Russian soldiers with the local and Russian hooligans who are terrorizing the locals.
    That's plain bull*. Only some of the Russian occupiers, brought there by Stalin, did not want to be part of Ukraine. The Russian military occupied Crimea first and then forged that "referendum". It's credibility equals the elections in North Korea...
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Karjala if it was up to you, you would rewrite the history books and blame the Russians for the extinction of the dinosaurs....

    Me and you are very well acquainted and unlike some here and I know that you can't be bothered with facts.... I will not be dragged into your silly discussion.
     
  3. green slime

    green slime Member

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    That's a nice sentiment. Now if you actually produced facts to back up your claims, others might be able to decide for themselves. So far, however, you've provided remarkably few facts.

    Russian behaviour in the Crimea is well known, with the "exporting" of Tartars, and a long history of Russification...

    FACT: Russia, as a party to the Belgrade Memorandum
    Agreed, that after the Ukraine abandoned nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
    1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
    2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
    3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.

    Russia has violated this on several accounts.

    It is clear for a long time, Russia has used gas as a tool for influencing politics (Economic pressure).
    In February 2014, Russian forces seized or blockaded various airports, as well as other strategic sites throughout Crimea. Directly contravening the Budapest Memorandum. (So much from refraining from the threat of force)
    Russia furthermore supported a referendum on whether the Crimea should join the Russian Federation. (So much for respecting the territorial integrity of the Ukraine).

    Regardless of whether the impeachment was entirely legal or not, it is clear that
    On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May. It is worth remembering, the impeachment may have not followed the procedure provided by the constitution enacted during Yanukovych's administration (what a shock; he changed the constitution to prevent his removal from power...)

    73%... seems like, unconstitutional or not (and when you've manipulated the constitution to stay in power, it isn't really a valid point), it was a clear majority of the parliament were very, very disatisfied with the President. Its nice that Russia took notice, and supported Mr Yanukovich against the MAJORITY of Ukrainians. Then stole the Crimea. Because there was absolutely no need for Russian forces to seize airports etc in the Crimea. That wasn't the threat of force against the Ukraine, of course not.
     
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  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That would be the best alternative but since the president had fled and Russia was making aggressive noises being leaderless isn't a good thing is it?

    That seems to be the official Russian position. It also seems to be very questionable.

    Sources Please.

    Was it really a military coup though? That seems to be at best an open question. The referendum was also very questionable. What's not questionable is that Russia broke it's treaty with the Ukraine.
     
  5. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    No, I wouldn't. But since you brought it up, the Russians would probably indeed kill the dinosaurs to the extinction too...


    Most people here are already very well aware of your writings and the lack of basic facts they present,

    It was you who started to talk about the dinosaurs, but since you can't deny anything I write I understand your evasive actions...
     
  6. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Gentlemen I like to consider myself a realist. There are certain countries on this planet that have spheres of influence. U.S. Is one of these countries.

    There was a time not too long ago when the U.S. Discovered something she considered shocking going on 90 miles away. The discovery of a foreign, hostile nation so close to U.S. Borders with her own agenda, made America very nervous and threatened her national security. As a result the U.S, without regard to what anyone may have thought or the well being of the Cuban people, did what she had to do to protect her national interests. As a realist, I understand what the U.S did and why. Can't say I don't agree with it.....

    Like it or not, Russia too has a sphere or influence. It is now Russia that feels nervous and a bit threatened with what's unfolding in her backyard... Ukraine gentlemen is Russia's Cuba and is closer than 90 miles away. As the United States had, Russia too will do anything and everything to defend her national interest and security.

    Russia annexed Crimea for the same reason the U.S. annexed Hawaii..... Sevastopol is Russia's largest Naval base in warm water (Russia's Peral Harbor). To be under the impression that Russia would simply step aside and hand it over to NATO would be a mistake...

    All this talk of Russia meddling in other countries "business" is puzzling considering the same countries pointing fingers are themselves involved not only in Ukraine but in other parts of the world.
     
  7. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    We consider you as a professional propagandist...

    No country has a right to a "sphere of influence" (= Stalin/Hitler talk) in other countries. Neither has Russia - nor the USA for that matter. Naturally every country has a right to look after it's security and to protect itself against the (real) threats, other countries included.

    With Russia that is not the case, since nothing has been/is threatening her. Russia is only using the lame and false excuses like "sphere of influence", "protecting her citizens(?)" etc. to disguise her imperialistic and greedy ambitions. Domestically Russia needs to create "outside enemies" to keep her suppressed citizens focused on something else than their miserable lives.

    We all know about Cuba. The USSR tried to bring atomic weapons to the US front steps. Luckily it did not work out (thanks maybe to a Finnish traitor, Otto Wille Kuusinen, who was advising Khrushchev to withdraw).

    Ukraine is nothing like Cuba! There're NO atomic weapons nor is there any plan to bring them there. As you have already been reminded Russia promised to honour Ukraine's independence when she returned her atomic weapons to Russia! Ukraine was no "hostile country" to Russia. Making one's own decisions or not being commanded by Russia is not the same as being hostile. Of course now - thanks to Putin's own insane actions - the situation is somewhat different.

    You Russians don't seem to get, that we don't live in the 19th century nor the Middle ages any more. What was acceptable or somewhat tolerable over a hundred years ago - before the UN or the League of Nations - is not any more, in 2014. If the USA tried to annex e.g. the Bahamas today, it would not be accepted, period.

    That talk about Sevastopol is also total rubbish. Russia has no permanent right to it, like she does not have to the Estonian, Latvian nor Lithuanian ports either. If you can't get a peaceful deal with the Ukrainians about it you must leave. But that was not the case since you DID have a valid agreement with Ukrainians, which they were going to honour (unlike Russia with her deals...). NATO countries - with their decreasing defence budgets (contrary to the Russian defence budget) - had no plans nor need for Sevastopol.

    Russia compering herself with the USA and trying (and failing) to equal would look and sound very pathetic, ridiculous and simply sad, if it didn't mean continuous invasions to the neighbouring peaceful countries. Although the USA is no saint and makes mistakes, as well as (too) often screwing up with the long term execution of operations, that's nothing like the Russian raw imperialism.

    The US foreign operations are (almost) always backed and even asked for by a vast international consensus of democratic countries. The Russian imperialistic invasions, backed only by herself, are on the other hand always objected by the international community.

    Wake up Russia - the USSR is no more! And the USSR only lasted as long as her peoples believed in official lies and/or could be bullied to obey. Today's Russia is only another semi-developed country with diminishing population and distorted self-image - albeit with the nukes and a lot of land. There're no separate rules nor rights for you!

    If you continue trying to be the new USSR the same faith is waiting for you...
     
  8. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Section Two of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
    "2.The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

    In fairness though, it doesn't say anything about the Russians accidentally invading the Ukraine...
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Russia can't be all bad.... I hear you Finns are enjoying cheap cheese and other dairy products after Russia embargo....
     
  10. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I would be very interested in seeing evidence showing the west stuck her word and did not meddle in Ukraines affairs.. Surely the Orange revolution can't be proof of the West respecting Ukraines political independence???
     
  11. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Not aware of the west covertly invading the Ukraine, but feel free to correct me.
     
  12. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    One cannot deny the Wests funding and supporting of the Orange revolution.

    OSCE has already refuted Ukrains claim of a Russian invasion...
     
  13. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Think you'll find the first statement is paranoia.
    And the second-
    "European Union foreign ministers have expressed "deep concern" at Russia's "aggression against Ukraine", as the bloc's leaders prepare to consider new sanctions on the Russian government.
    Speaking after the ministerial meeting in Milan, EU foreign policy chief Catherine Aston urged Russia to "withdraw its forces from Ukraine"."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28993873
     
  14. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I'm not sure paranoia is a word that I would use... Yushenkos wife is an American citizen for crying out loud.

    http://rt.com/news/183864-ukraine-european-volunteers-fighting/

    Another read as to who's coming to fight in Ukraine.
     
  15. green slime

    green slime Member

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    It's not puzzling. It's the extent, and methods which Russia bends to.

    The USA's annexation of Hawaii occurred so far back in time, it's practically ancient history. Very little can be done to rectify that. Remember that this occurred at a very different time in history, you're talking pre-World War One. Most nations that existed then, no longer do.

    And you are conveniently forgetting that the Russian base on sovereign Ukrainian territory, was leased to Russia in 2010 until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047.

    The USA has multiple bases around the globe. It hasn't threatened to invade/annex in the past 50 years because the access rights to the bases are going to be revoked, to my knowledge. If you can find an example of that, I'd be interested.

    What's puzzling me about the whole thing?

    Ten amblers (of 331st regiment of the 98th Svirsk airborne division) lost in the Ukraine: This leads me to believe Russia's satellite navigation equipment is just really, really bad. Not only is it Soviet Nuclear-armed submarines that can't navigate, but being Russian and getting lost is reaching proportions that lead me to believe it just might be genetic. Because we all know, that the 331st regiment, wouldn't deliberately be there.

    Mercenaries and other opportunists are to be expected. But those in the employ of the armed services of a state, that denies supporting separatists, should not.

    Your RT "news"-zine is rediculous: "Europe now finds itself between a rock and a hard place: What to do as more of its young men sign up to fight against its ally?"

    Ahh... the delicious irony of the Chetniks figting for the Russian's in their "antifascist" crusade....

    [​IMG]
    Milutin Malisic, a member of a Serbian Chetnik paramilitary group. (Reuters / Thomas Peter)


    Read More at inserbia.info/today/2014/03/who-is-milutin-malisic-leader-of-chetniks-in-crimea/ © InSerbia News



    "They are self-proclaimed Chetniks, whose forebears in the Second World War both fought against and collaborated with the Nazis against Communist forces"

    (But when Ukrainian nationalists did the same, they were obviously Fascists.)
     
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  16. green slime

    green slime Member

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    But do you really fail to see the difference between use of force, and use of normal political manifestations, i.e. funding? The agreement doesn't preclude normal political activation / funding for God's sake. What it did preclude, was the use of force, or threat of force, or serious economic sanctions against the Ukraine. That was the guarantee the Ukraine got for giving up its Nuclear weapons. Just recognise, that the majority of people in the Ukraine were very tired of the Russian-sponsored leader and wanted a change. Had Russia actually been living in the 21st Century, it could've benefited greatly. Now there is going to be no serious change until Putin dies, if then.

    The Soviet Union "meddled" by funding Communist organisations throughout Europe. Strange how they've gone the way of the dinosaurs. If a system has nothing more attractive to offer in a democratic system, it'll change. In a non-democratic system, it'll try to change, but with more violence.

    Russia has picked the wrong legacy to hold on to, becoming more nationalist and fascist to defend the idea of a Greater Russia, beset by enemies. Awesome.
     
  17. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    1) No she isn't-
    "Criticized by her husband's opponents for her US citizenship, Kateryna became a Ukrainian citizen on March 2005 and renounced her US citizenship, as required by Ukrainian law, in March 2007."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko#Family_and_private_life
    2) Believe that BS from Russia Today, and you'll believe anything.
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Your repeated references to the Orange Revolution, for some more views of what occurred.

    It's well known that Berezovsky poured millions of dollars into sustaining the spontaneous demonstrations and was in daily contact with the key opposition leaders for the Orange Revolution. So what? Berezovsky's agenda did not align well with the west, either.

    In a modern economy, I get bombarded with messages each and every day, to tune of millions of Euros. BMW, Audi, Jehovah's Witness, McDonald's, KLM, they all spend millions trying to get our attention. They have teams that analyse and digest reports. And that's not during an election. You can't exploit a need that isn't there. IF the need is there, in a free market or democratic election, it'll get filled.
     
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  19. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    For once you are (partially) right. The Finnish customers thank for the cheap "Putin-cheese" and other "Putin-products" (names widely used now everywhere, the Finnish media included, for the discounted food made for Russia with the texts in Russian but now sold in Finland...), but the cheese and other food factories or their employees don't. Still, that's a cheap price to pay for defending democracy and the freedom of Ukraine - and of Europe too!

    Russia is continuing her erratic custom policies. After Russia declared the dairy product embargo the ordinary Russian customers demanded, successfully, it to be lifted from lactose free and such special products, since they are not made in Russia at all. Now those lactose free products have been stopped at the border again, since the Russian officials have invented a new "licence", which nobody have ever heard before. The Russian lactose intolerants are not happy..,.


    The West hasn't "meddled" with Ukraine's affairs, only Russia has. Russia has tried to force her will on Ukrainians, who only want to be part of the civilized world and live freely. The Orange revolution was one demonstration of the free will of the Ukrainians - against the Russian tyranny. They did not need any "meddling" from anywhere - and definitely do not WANT any meddling of Russia!



    Am not sure what Yushenko's wife has to do with anything...?

    RT = Russia Today = Putin's official propaganda = total bull*
     
  20. USS Washington

    USS Washington Active Member

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    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/31/putin-threatens-nuclear-war-over-ukraine.html

    And now Putin's threatening nuclear war over Ukraine, this man and his fellow scumbags in the Kremlin need to wiped from the face of the Earth.
     
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