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Does Anyone Still Believe FDR Was Right to Blame Kimmel and Short?

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by Michael Timothy Griffith, Jan 30, 2022.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Are you that daft man?

    The"scrambler" phone was not a "secure" method of communication. Sure, it prevented your everyday Joe 6-Pack from listening in, but the process could be translated back into intelligible speech rather easily...This is why Bell advertised it as "privacy" & not "secure".

    So, by all means tell Tokyo that we're had broken their codes.

    FYI, Tokyo was also receiving these scrambler communications.
     
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  2. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    But virtue-signalling is exactly what "scholars" do to raise their own profiles. Doesn't mean they're right, merely that they've found a new bandwagon.
     
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  3. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    I second Takao's take on the question. Too bad they didn't hold MacArthur responsible for his contributions like they did the other two.
     
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  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I assure everyone it will be enjoyable!

    All of Michael Timothy Griffith's lies are laid bare. Mike even shows his complete lack of understand with gems like
    For those who do not know...Fat Man, the plutonium bomb, was the bomb used in the Trinity test. The scientists were not sure it would work(the explosive compression would be enough to cause supercriticality), which was why it was tested.

    Little Boy, the Uranium bomb, was not tested, because the physicists knew it would work as advertised...This, however, was not the problem. The problem was the detonator, in the last "Pumpkin" test, the Bomb sailed into the Pacific, without emitting the tell-tale puffs of smoke that indicated the detonators had fired off.
     
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  5. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    Confirmed!
    These are not directly lies: He obviously has certain problems putting facts into a logical context.
    This inevitably leads to quite weird viewpoints
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Somebody let me know if these threads need attention.
     
  7. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    I don
    I don't think so. There is a lot of good information, reasoned evaluation, and historical context contained within the rebuttals. People have also become so myopic and self-validating in their perspectives that open debate is valuable. I'd hate to think that revisionism and virtue signaling so muddies our history that we lose sight of the truth. The further we get away from the events, and the more they are reinterpreted with a contemporary cultural bias, the less we understand what actually transpired.
     
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  8. Michael Timothy Griffith

    Michael Timothy Griffith Member

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    This is a prime example of the absolute, silly, abject nonsense that you produce on Pearl Harbor (and also on Japan's surrender).

    As many scholars have pointed out, Marshall could have called General Short on the scrambler phone (Marshall had one on his desk) and told him to put his forces on full alert and to have his planes in the air by 7:30 AM Hawaii time without saying a word about Japanese intercepts or code breaking. For that matter, as many scholars have also noted, Marshall could have given any number of plausible cover stories for this order, such as that a spy in Tokyo had warned that Pearl Harbor might be attacked that day, or that Russian fishing ships had spotted Japanese naval ships heading west a few days ago, etc., etc.

    But not only did Marshall inexplicably and suspiciously decline to use the scrambler phone, he also refused Secretary Knox's and Admiral Stark's suggestion that he use the Navy radio system.

    Even a dumb young lieutenant who was foolish enough to choose to send the crucial warning via Western Union would have had enough common sense to ensure that it was sent as a priority telegram and flagged as urgent.

    These are the kinds of revealing facts and considerations that would have emerged in a court martial, which is why Admiral Kimmel wanted and formally requested a court martial, and which is also why the War Department refused his request.
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The LTCMDR that sent that message wasn't involved in the discussion that generated it. He knew nothing of the urgency of the message. You wouldn't know that because it's hidden in big thick books with footnotes and sources and scary stuff like that.
     
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  10. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    Well, talking about absolute, stupid, abject nonsense: we're still waiting for the revealing,
    irrefutable evidence from the Hoover-Ladd memos that has been referred to here several times
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Short renumbered the alert scales, reporting he was at Alert 1. This was his lowest alert level and the rest of the world's highest level. He didn't tell the Army Dept. about that switch. He prepared for action by grouping the aircraft in a wide open area, to "protect against sabotage." The IJN pilots were thrilled to discover the planes weren't in the revetments. Lots of good planes destroyed, their pilots, generally experienced, had nowhere to go.

    Kimmel let his fleet go on "banker's hours". This allowed Yoshikawa Takeo to report that a "big bag" could be expected on any weekend. This was the thing that allowed Yamamoto to get the High Command to sign off on the attack. The security of the fleet schedule was laughable.

    Both men were offered a chance to clear their name in a court-martial. Short died before that offer expired, Kimmel evidently couldn't face a court and went to the Court of Public Opinion rather than testify under oath again. (The letter is the last exhibit in the Hearings.)
     
  12. Michael Timothy Griffith

    Michael Timothy Griffith Member

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    Well, whatever "big thick books with footnotes and sources" that gave you this lame explanation were written by people who either didn't know what they were talking about or who were trying to mislead.

    Marshall's message was sent from the Army Message Center under the direct supervision of Col. French, who was in charge of the message center. The message was not sent as a priority message and was not marked as urgent because Col. Bratton, whom Marshall sent to take the message to the message center, did not instruct Col. French to send the message with that priority and marking. The originator of the message, or his representative, was the one who would specify the priority and the marking, not the signals person who sent it.

    The signals person would follow whatever transmission instructions came with the message and would never presume to take it upon himself to determine the precedence and marking of a message, especially not one written by the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army.

    Marshall's astounding and plainly suspicious conduct that morning was one of the things that first alerted me that there was much to Pearl Harbor than I'd been taught in school.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    That's not right. It's not even wrong.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    "Marshall's astounding and plainly suspicious conduct that morning was one of the things that first alerted me that there was much to Pearl Harbor than I'd been taught in school." Well, they don't teach silly in school, so you must have been homeschooled.

    You might want to sit down with a clinical psychologist as well, your paranoia is showing. You should tuck that in.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    "Well, whatever "big thick books with footnotes and sources" that gave you this lame explanation were written by people who either didn't know what they were talking about or who were trying to mislead."

    That an inferiority complex. Nicely done, too.
     
  16. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    And what everyone fails to mention is that the wonderful scrambler phone between Washington and Oahu was a RADIOSCRAMBLER PHONE which suffered not only from interception, it was not a secure link, but its performance was negatively impacted by atmospheric interference. There was not a solid line, a phone line, between the mainland and the Hawaiian Islands until after the war.
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yep. The RCA's 40 KW radio transmitter was able to break through the sunspot noise where the Army's 20 KW transmitter failed. But the Sun must have been in on the conspiracy, right?:rolleyes:
     
  18. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    Do should be very careful with such sentences: Japan is also called the land of the rising sun.
    Knowing MTG as I do, he sees this as further crucial proof for his theses.
     
  19. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Oooooohhhhh....I was just going to spring that on Mikey. Since the first undersea telephone cable to Hawaii was not laid until 1957, I was going to asking him how this mystical device worked with no direct connection to Hawaii.
     
  20. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Have fun, guys, and yell if you need me.
     

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