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Does OZ owe it's freedom to the US?

Discussion in 'War in the Pacific' started by Ken The Kanuck, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    No, that's how much fuel they had on hand. The question of an embargo follows on from that. The issues are discussed here:

    http://ibiblio.org/pha/monos/
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    With regards to the embargos a time line of related events might help. Looking around the web I'm having a bit of a time finding exactly when the various Congressional acts were passed and announcements, interpretations, and proclamations made.
    What is clear is that in 1939 US informs Japan that it is withdrawing from the 1911 commercial treaty which allows embargos in 6 months. The US didn't do anything for over a year but then embargoed av gas and some scrap metal. Apparently a number of additional embargos were imposed prior to the act Then in July of 41 Japanese assets in the US were frozen. In August this was interpreted as a total embargo as well as a freeze on assets.

    For something that should be fairly straight forward the amount of contradictory information on the web is disconcerting.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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  5. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    When tyrants behave badly, civilized nations have only four options.

    Ignore it, hoping they will stop on their own and not want something you cherish.

    Negotiate in the hope you can change their mind.

    Economic sanction to make things too costly to continue.

    War.

    If I wanted to be snarky I could point out the Anglo-French tried the first two with Germany in the mid to late 1930's and ask how did it work out for them? Fortunately I am far too classy for that! :D

    I have little patience for the argument that Japan was forced to go to war with the west by the embargo. It sounds much like the excuse a wife beater uses to blame those around them for the cruelty they inflict on others. Japan began carving up the Asian mainland in the late 1800's for it's natural resources, such as food, coal, iron ore and others. In the last decade a tide of pillage became a veritable flood of murder, rape,
    destruction and theft.

    Japan was a highly industrialized, resource poor country who decided to take what they wanted from whomever had it. What they lacked in 1941 was oil and rubber and these were just to the south of them. Because of events in Europe these resources were virtually unguarded and those guarding them could not spare the forces to adequately come to its defense.

    Japan had long coveted these and it is difficult to imagine they could resist striking out while they were vulnerable. America was rearming, in part because of events in Europe and because of Japanese acts of aggression in the Pacific. In a year, perhaps two the US alone would be too strong to challenge or offend. To a fatalistic warrior culture like Japan no act of accommodation was going to dissuade them.
     
  6. Aussiegoat

    Aussiegoat Member

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    There's a difference between arguing that the embargo contributed (maybe accelerated) the Japanese decision to attack, and causing it. I don't think anybody is saying the embargo forced Japan to attack, but I'm sure it inflamed things and as you said, their Bushido culture meant that it was probably now or never and the odds of them backing down as such were low.

    I know this is opening a can of worms, but this American miscalculation (not adequately considering the ramifications of their decision, not understanding their enemy) reminds me somewhat of Iraq in 2003, and (again to potentially poke a stick at some of our American friends), Vietnam. I'm not trying to go down a rabbit hole here, and I know there are 100s of other examples from other countries, I just find the parallels interesting.
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Nothing the US did short of complete appeasement was going to keep Japan from its self-ordained rampage.
     
  9. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Japan woke the Dragon...and shes been roaring ever since...
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The "now or never" part was the American rearmament program that was being instituted, more specifically, the Navy Act of 1938, which upon completion would increase the size of the USN by 20%, and the Two-Ocean Navy Act of 1940, which upon completion would increase the size of the USN by 70%. Not to mention FDR's call for 50,000 aircraft in 1940.

    While the Japanese did have their own naval rearmament programs, they knew that it would take many years to complete them.
    Imperial Japanese Navy World War II Production Programs

    The Americans looked to have their plans completed by 1947, while the Japanese were looking at 1950...And that was with the Americans building about 100 more warships than the Japanese were calling for.


    The Japanese struck because "the iron was hot."
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    What the embargo did do was it forced them to decide. They either had to back down from their campaign in China or find another source for oil which kind of emplied war.
    What makes you think it was a miscalculation? Coments from a number of those involved clearly indicate that they understood the ramifications of the embargos.
    A bit curious here as to just what you are talking about although it would probably be better in it's own thread or threads.
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    When the subject of Japanese invasion of Australia comes up I'm reminded of Cheech and Chong's kamikaze skit:

    "Honorable kamikaze pilots of Rising Sun Empire of Japan, today you going on most dangerous mission. Today you take kamikaze airplane high up in the sky, find Yankee aircraft carrier, bring kamikaze plane down fast, crashing on deck, killing yourself and all aboard. Now, before we have ceremonial sake toast, are there any questions? Yah, in the back, Sakimoto."

    "Honorable General, Sir!"

    "Ah so!"

    "Are you out of your $#%@&$% mind?"
     
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  13. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    I doubt the Japanese had the will or the resources to conquer Australia, which was outside the perimeter that the Japanese planned to defend. They did bomb Syndney harbour but no one noticed....
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The whole reason for the advance into the Southern Resources Area was to sustain the war in China. Once they had the NEI they only wanted to keep it.
     
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  15. Aussiegoat

    Aussiegoat Member

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    When did they bomb Sydney harbour? They shelled some Sydney suburbs from a sub, but only 1 round exploded, and people certainly noticed!
     
  16. Aussiegoat

    Aussiegoat Member

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    Shoot me a direct msg if you want to discuss.
     
  17. Aussiegoat

    Aussiegoat Member

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    It's all well and good that some people (including I'm assuming some senior) felt it might lead to war, but did FDR think that when he decided to go along with the FULL embargo? Ultimately, his decision to go along with the full embargo was made (from you've written) because of political considerations. If he did this knowing full well that it would lead to war, then that sounds a little unwise. If he didn't know it would lead to war, then it sounds like the definition of a miscalculation.

    Separately, do you know if these fears communicated to the British, Dutch and Australian governments/militaries?
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    The British had been diplomatically trying for nearly a decade to get the US to cover the UK's shortfall in the East (i.e. contain Japanese aggression / expansion), but the US was uninterested in doing Britain's work for free.
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I think we mean "Darwin Harbor".
     
  20. green slime

    green slime Member

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