Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

DU - Health Risk?

Discussion in 'Post-World War 2 Armour' started by Grieg, Feb 1, 2007.

  1. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    [Split from "The M1A2 Abrams: Obsolete or Battleworthy?"]


    True. The DU rounds are only hazardous, practically speaking when they penetrate armor and burn(sorta) and probably then only to the occupants of that armor being penetrated. And you were trying to kill them anyway :wink:
     
  2. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bloomington, Indiana USA
    via TanksinWW2
    sinissa:
    Here in my hometown, the Westinghouse Corporation produced PCBs for high-voltage capacitors in the 1960s, 70s and perhaps into the early 80s.. Little or nothing was known about its toxic effects after long-term exposure at the time of it's production and use.
    We have a couple dumping-areas that are now EPA "Superfund" sites requiring major enviornmental cleanup. At one time Westinghouse Corp. planned to build a large incinerator to "burn-up" the problem PCB contaminated soil... til it was determined that would only release the active agent into the surrounding atmosphere.
    Westinghouse has since gone out of business locally, and even though the complex has been demolished, the top-soil must be hauled away as well.
    The "Lemon Lane" site locally is identified by large black tarps which cover the ground, surrounded by 10ft tall chain-link fencing. They just don't know what to do with this stuff.
    Local officials always stated there was no real danger to the public, but I believe the local population has a higher incidence of cancer as a result. Kids used to play where the PCBs were dumped, and the junk capacitors were routinely salvaged...the PCBs draining-out all over their hands... and the ground.

    I think the pesticide you are referring to is perhaps DDT... which was devastating to wildlife such as raptors... hawks, falcons and our national symbol, the Bald Eagle. The long-term effect was it caused their egg-shells to become so thin, their odds of a successful hatch were near zero. The effects on people were not as insidious as that of PCB contamination.

    That should cheer you up, eh?

    Tim
     
  3. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    Not realy Tim,i live in town with heawy industry (oil rafinery,chemichal industry and many otther factories),and i know how it work on population,and it is not nice (especialy after NATO bombed chemichal industry in my city and much cancerogen supstences gone in air,water and soil) ,i tryed to point that there is not enought evidences that proowe that DU is highly dangerous to helth,and no against that,so time will shown to us.It has long halph-elimination time and it will stay in soil many more yers from now,and if they find in 20-30 year that is hazardus,what we can do?There is no way that u can clean all DU from soil.I honestly hope that it aint hazardus,coz US filled Serbian with DU (mainly on kosovo,and in empty space-models) and it is bigg problem for me,and my ppl.I agree that propaganda can twist things,but i dont trust to radioactive materials.
    Ex yugoslavia had developed nuclear program (we made 1 nuclear power plan,it is located now in Slovenia-Krsko),we hadtechnology to make them more,eawen to make nuclear weapons,but we did not,and im glad for that.Last suplays of uranium and plutonium was expotred to russia 405years a go (think 20 Kg) from Vincha nuclear Institut,and that facility (posses reactor) is shuten down.
     
  4. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    You are a wealth of misinformation, half truths and falsehoods...and that refers to your best points :grin:
     
  5. MikeGolf

    MikeGolf New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    Hmmmm, we continued to drift away from the subject......

    I'm actually tired of rehashing the DU issue with people whom don't know what they are talking about. There is a mountian of evidence that identifies the amount of radition a human can withstand and its effects. I do not have my doctorate but I can say without hesitation that if you don't lick tanks after they get hit by DU you should be fine. However, you may die of cancer from your smoking habit. I suggest you research what the word "depleted" means. Lead and plastics also take a very long time to break down in the soil so that arguement is weak too.

    Comparing different conflicts is wrong. There may be lessons learned that can be used in another theater or conflict but each war is decisively different. In WWII there were small elements of gorillia operations but they didn't influence the out come. Nam was completely different. Both required different tactics and operations because they each had different types of threats. Neither can be compared to Iraq.

    Now could we get back to the topic?
     
  6. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    But plastic does not transmit radiation,and it is not heawy metal.Ok mike,we can go back to subject.
     
  7. Jens Knudsen

    Jens Knudsen New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denmark
    via TanksinWW2
    the on going discussion about DU ammo.....
    there is a risk that when a DU round hit its target it turn into uraniumoxid as a dust, this you can inhail and then there is a risk that you get a heavy metal poision, uranium is a heavy metal, which mean it will stay in your body for a long time.
    DU ammo is not that highly radioactive(dont get me wrong its radioactive but you have removed the more unstabil U-235 and U-234 from it)

    but the thing is none of all the health issues that have been around all this have never been proved beyond doubt that its DU that cause it, but the risk is there and thats why my country (Denmark) never use DU ammo

    but the M1A2 is still battleworthy, special with the TUSK upgrade and the 120 mm gun is still the best there is at the moment

    btw. the Korean war is still not over, there were never signed a peace agreement, they just agreed on stop killing each other for the moment
     
  8. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    The only people likely to inhale it in that way are those that you were shooting it at. Under those circumstances the possibility of cancer in the distant future is the least of their worries. More likely their future will be much abreviated. :grin:
     
  9. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    Tipicaly Grieg.
     
  10. MikeGolf

    MikeGolf New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    The alternitive to DU is normally tungston-carbide. Don't think there isn't health risks to using it as well. Inhaling "dust" from one of these rounds also can cause cancer and other problems. The green party likes to play on peoples fears by abusing the word "uranium". It is common in many countries, not just Denmark.
     
  11. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    11,708
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Luton, UK
    via TanksinWW2
    If this is simply a comment on the person posting, then it is completely innapropriate. Do not do this! :angry:
     
  12. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    It is coment about his point of view.
     
  13. Jens Knudsen

    Jens Knudsen New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2004
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denmark
    via TanksinWW2
    Uranium is radioactive no matter what you say, so there is a bigger risk in using uranium ammo then tungsten-carbide ammo, tungsten-carbide is not radioactive
    I quote from "The merck index, tenth edition"
    "9656 Uranium. caution: Uranium and its salts are highly toxic. Dermatitis, renal damage, acute necrotic arterial lesions, death may occur. Radiation hazard from inhalation of fine particles of approx 1 micro. Insol particles in lung may be long-term carcinogenic hazard. See L. T. Fairhall, Industrial Toxicology (Hafner, New York, 2nd ed., 1969) pp 129 - 131"
    Now lets see what the same chemical book say about tungsten:
    "9612 Tungsten: (no caution have been writen about tungsten in "the merck index") only that its LD50 number in rats is 5g/kg"
    (LD50 is the doise of the substance where 50% of the test rats die)

    a particle of the size of 1 micro is very small and compared to 5g/kg its almost nothing

    and now you will probberly say that the ones you are shooting at with DU ammo will die anyway, well yes, but thats not the problem, the problem is that the dust will stay there and when the next rain come it will be lead out into waterways (rivers etc) some of these waterways might be used by civilians as a supply of water, not very luckly if you fill it with radioactiv dust that is so hazardous that you only need very small amongs to get sick and maybe die from it

    and if you wonder about what the merck index is: an encyclopedia of chemicals, drugs and biologicals with over 10,000 monographs on single substances or groups of related compounds. It also includes an appendix with monographs on organic name reactions. It is published by the United States pharmaceutical company Merck & Co.
     
  14. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bloomington, Indiana USA
    via TanksinWW2
    I'm no chemist, but I thought the very term "depleted" as in depleted uranium means it's not the "hot stuff." ( I can get radiation from an x-ray at the dentist or from my mircowave-oven.)
    It's the dosage that is key.
    Doesn't this "depleted process" result in a bullet that is simply more "dense" as a base element, and one with more penetrating power, compared to say lead, copper jacketed or Tungsten-carbide AP?
    Lead is also a heavy metal, and lead-poisoning can be fatal. Of course so can being shot repeatedly at close-range.
    Really, though... is the use of depleted-uranium the environmental concern some would suggest? Jens seems to suggest that it is.
    I really don't know the answer.

    Tim
     
  15. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    This is supposition. You have no evidence that it will occur as you describe.
    A certain amount of radiation is present in nature and many toxic substances are present in nature. The level of risk is what is important. The level of risk that is likely from DU ammunition is very small based on potential levels of exposure and when compared to known risk levels in the scientific literature.
     
  16. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2

    Actualy,u do get radiation from x-rays,that why Rentgent technicians got higher pays and some benefits in workih hours what otther medical staff does not.They allso use protective gear.Microwave is not radiation,microwave use radio wawes,same as the wirless net,cell phones etc.

    Grieg,maybe now,but in years using DU ammo,that risk will be higher,coz concentration of DU will be higher in soil.

    I find interesting info about DU and tungsten (otter AP option),US does not hawe tungsten and they must import it from China in order to use it,and they hawe plenty DU waste from nuclear power plants.Nice way to reduce expences and dump the toxic waste all ower world,away from US soil.
     
  17. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bloomington, Indiana USA
    via TanksinWW2
    sinissa:
    I use tungsten-iron shotgun shells when goose-hunting. The pellets will go clean through a goose at 50yds. The stuff is lethal in a good kind of way... for a hunter. Tungsten-polymer is another legal option.
    Both are "no-tox" so approved for waterfowl use in the United States. Unlike lead with is now banned from ALL waterfowling here. You can still use it for small game, but restricted in some public areas where it poses a danger to wildlife. If a game warden or conservation officer find you shooting ducks or geese using lead... you're in BIG trouble boy!

    Tim
     
  18. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    I realy dont get point.What realtion with DU here?
     
  19. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    Microwaves refers to a range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation.
    It is indeed radiation.
    More claims unsupported by scientific data.

    The only DU we are dumping overseas is that which is fired into enemy AFVs, not much of a pollution source.
     
  20. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    Electromagnetic,not nuclear.Wirless is widely sphread in home use,and ewery lap-top had 2.4Ghz wirless card in him,and microwawe allso work on 2.4Mhz.Only diference is that microwawe ise 1.3kW power,and wirless devices use 50mW.And again DU got extremly long half-life 4.46 Bilion years (source wiki) what is,for us,mortals infinitly.
     

Share This Page