Elefant: First Jagdpanzer (?)

Panzerjäger loosely translates to tank destroyer. Jagdpanzer is a tank destroyer which is fully armored, i.e. a tank in its own right.

The Elefant was officially designated "Panzerjäger Tiger (P)", but it was fully armored. Thus it can be considered to be the first Jagdpanzer. However it was not called this way, as the Germans had not sorted out this terminology.

But is there any source clarifying this explicitly?

 

Fully armored v. lightly armored. More aggressive v. defensive fighting tactics. Originally tracked panzer jagers were meant to give mobility to anti-tank gunners. Towed v. self-propelled. The panzer jagers were highly vulnerable to Soviet antitank rifles and the crews in the open topped panzerjagers vulnerable to overhead shell bursts/shrapnel. Panzerjagers were to fight defensively/reactively (ambush) rather than aggressive offensive tactics. The book, No Finer Comrade describes it. With the panzerjager think of a heavyweight fighter with a glass jaw. It could deliver a blow but couldn't take one. Mind you that infantry commanders may not make that distinction and may not optimally employ them with conservation of forces in mind. By the nature of being fully armored the jagdpanzers could be more aggressive but not all were thick skinned (Hetzer). Hetzers were originally called light tank hunters (leichtpanzer jager 38(t). Name change to Jagdpanzer 38 may be a morale thing or instilling of aggressive mindset.

Sturmgeschutzs were originally to be infantry support vehicles operated by artillerymen but the distinction became blurred as the need to fight enemy tanks/AFVs increased.

 

The Jadgpanzer developed in basically three stages:

The first stage was a series of improvised, lightly armored, vehicles--tracked and half-tracked--that had a large antitank gun plopped on top of the hull surrounded by thin armor screens.

The second stage, saw those first stage vehicles refined into better designs that were still lightly armored.

The third and last stage saw the development of heavily armored, big gun vehicles where the gun was mounted in a casemate-like structure on an existing tank hull.

The Elefant might be best described as a generation 2.5 vehicle where it was heavily armored, but not very ballistically shaped.

 

Like for example...?

 

I mentioned heavy weight fighter with a glass jaw (picked that term up from the book Battleship Sailor, book I of a triology about sailor/radioman Theodore Mason's experience in WW II) and this pops up on the U-toob feed.

 

The Germans had sorted out the terminology.

The original term was "Panzer-Abwehr" i.e. "Anti-Tank".

After the Polish Campaign, on 1 April 1940, they were redesignated "Panzerjäger" i.e. "Tank-Hunter".

Beginning in October 1940, some of the Panzerjäger were equipped with Selbstfahrlafette and were redesignated "Panzerjäger (Sfl)". The first were equipped with the Panzerjäger I (4.7cm (t) auf Selbstfahrlafette Panzer I), then later Marder 7.5cm and 7.62cm Pak. (note that one Panzerjäger-Abteilung was equipped with 8.8cm Sfl for the French Campaign, but was not so designated).

In March 1943, two Abteilungen were equipped with the Panzerjäger Elefant and were redesignated "schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilungen" i.e. "heavy Tank-Hunter Battalion". Shortly afterwards, more were equipped with the Panzerjäger Nashorn and were also redesignated as "schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilungen".

In May 1943, some Abteilungen began re-equipping with the 8.8cm Pak 43/41, the "Barn Door". They were redesignated as "Heeres-Panzerjäger-Abteilung (8.8cm) i.e. "Army [Troops] Tank-Hunter-Battalion (8.8cm)".

The Jagdpanzer did not refer to the unit but rather to the equipment. They were fully-armored self-propelled antitank guns as opposed to the Selbstfahrlafette, which were lightly armored (in some cases essentially unarmored) self-propelled antitank gun carriages. The Jagdpanzer were the Jagdpanzer 38(t), Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanther, and Jagdtiger, although the term was also applied to the Panzer IV/70 (V) and the Panzer IV/70 (A) even though they were technically counted as Panzer.

All of the units were "Panzerjäger". Some of the equipment were Jadpanzer,

The weapons systems used by the Panzerjäger were:

Panzerabwehrkanone i.e. Antitank guns
Panzerjäger (Sfl) i.e. Self-propelled Antitank guns
Jagdpanzer i.e. Armored Antitank guns

 

Vehicles like the Nashorn, or later Marder III series where the engine was moved to the middle of the vehicle and fighting compartment was at the rear. In these, the gun wasn't just plopped down on top of an unmodified hull but rather the hull was now modified in layout to give better ballistic protection--however scant-- and reduce the overall height of the vehicle's silhouette.

 

Terry, neither the Nashon nor Marder was a Jagdpanzer. In German doctrine and nomenclature they were Panzerjäger (Sfl).

 

So going back to the initial question: The Elefant was officially also a Panzerjäger. But it was also a Jagdpanzer - the Germans just had not developed that terminology. So it can be called "the first Jagdpanzer". Right? But strangely, I do not find it identified as such in any source.

 

The Germans themselves did not attempt to neatly pigeonhole their vehicles in any orderlry fashion. The original motorized anti-tank guns were made to give greater mobility to the panzer jagers and it was only later that the fully amored jadgpanzers came about. Even after the development of the jadgpanzers the thin skinned panzerjagers continued being used. (Hans Hoeller's book is another good read about a small platoon of panzerjagers based on the Lorraine 37L.)

The Elefant was born of Porsche's failed bid to produce the Tiger. The Army choose the Henschel design and the unneeded Porsche Tiger chasis were expediently finished as tank destroyers to make them useful.

Similar confusion may be raised with the MP-43/44 and the Sturmgewher. Control the lexicon over vernacular to improve morale and mindset?

 

Because it never was called a Jagdpanzer, officially or unofficially. Its official designation was Sturmgeschütz mit 8.8cm Pak 43/2 (SdKfz 184), or Ferdinand, Elefant, or Panzerjäger Tiger (P).

 

At least post-war, it has been called a Jagdpanzer regularly. And it must be, because it IS a Jagdpanzer - a fully armored anti-tank vehicle with a dedicated anti-tank gun.

Example from a book of German officer Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand, 1954:

 

Sure. As you say, "post-war". Which says nothing about the wartime designation or doctrine associated with them. The concept and designation of the Jagdpanzer emerged in late 1943, six months after the first deployment of the Panzerjäger Tiger (P), which was as a heavy assault gun rather than as an armored antitank gun. In 1944, the lines between Panzerjäger (Sfl), Sturmgeschütz, Jagdpanzer, and Panzer became increasingly blurred, but that is how it ended, not how it started.

 

But it had a dedicated anti-tank gun?! I rather

Thanks for that info. Please can you tell me a source where to find that? I would like to add it in Wikipedia.

 

Sure, and it also had the split personality of its designations and usages. Was it a Panzerjäger? Or a schwere Sturmgeschütz? It had both designations. And its debut was as a Sturmgeschütz, not as a Panzerjäger.

Just follow the sequence of changing designations.

 

And the above proves that the hair splitting over the nomenclature trivial minutia compared to design and use of these vehicles in general.

 

Care to write that as a complete sentence Terry?

No, "hair splitting" involved. The sequence is quite clear. The original statement made was "However it was not called this way, as the Germans had not sorted out this terminology." That is incorrect. The Germans had sorted out their terminology. It was called that way because that was the designation used at the time, under the terminology they understood quite well.

If you want consider it something it was not after the fact, then by all means do so. Just don't call it history.