Evidence of Plagiarism found in Author Stephen Ambrose's books.

Thanks for the info on that new German special unit Andreas--I had always wondered what the military equivilent to the GSG9 was.

I had heard some weeks ago that German combat troops had been fighting in afgahistan--and I know that some of the Wehrmacht had been deployed in Bosnia? but I think only medical personnel--these were the first German soldiers deployed elsewhere since ww2--or so I have heard.

Now if the military would just reenstate the Iron Crosses as bravery medals--in their original designs from 1813-1870-1914 and 1939 (without Hakenkreuz) of course.

 

Speaking of medals Carl. I amanged to get to Bovinton last Sunday. They had a nice collection of medals there. Incuding 2 knights Crosses. 1 Had oak leaves, the other leaves and crosses. This is the first time i have seen these. they were rather battered, but very nice. Just how much are those things worth.

 

A good friend of mine who served multiple tours in Bosnia is afraid of a possible tour in Afghan. Unknown if this is true or not, or when.

He, from what I can tell, is not exactly medical personell.

 

Since 1990, German troops have been sent to:

Bosnia-Herzegovina
Somalia
East Timor
Georgia
Albania (twice, the first shots the Bundeswehr has fired in anger were fired in Albania)
Kosovo
Afghanistan

and some other places that I am not sure about. I think there was even a small mission to Cambodia or Laos.

There is talk or reinstating the Iron Cross as an award, but this does not have a chance of taking place, in my humble opinion.

 

When troops were stationed in Macedonia in 99, standing by to go into Kosovo, the commander was a German General. A couple of my mates who were there told be about a brief he gave to the British troops. He was explaining what they would have to do if they went in. Then he said, in a German accent of course, 'Once we have gone through Kosovo, we turn half right and just keep going. Maybe this time we win'. Got a big laugh apparently.

And who says German have no sense of humour.

 

I don't know where that "Germans have no sense of humour" thing came from originally, but it certainly is persistent. It's probably turned into one of the major British prejudices about Germans, even if only in a joking way.

Unfortunately, we don't really have anything comparable to say about the Brits!

Although I can say that Germans actually consider themselves a very humourous people, calling only the North Germans and the Swiss totally devoid of humour. And those would also strictly deny these charges!

 

I don't accept these stereyotypes myself. The Germans are well known for being organised. This may be taken as being serious, and so a lack of humour. Also of course, our humour can be hard for many others to grasp. Its often said that Europeans in particular don't grasp our humour. Just the way we are, mad dogs and Englishman, and all that stuff. But, i wish i had been there when that German General made that comment.

 

Hello Bish:

Values will vary on Knights Crosses. Just a KC by itself depending on the dealer you go through and the Crosses condition can cost anywhere from appx $4,000 Dollars to maybe $7,500 Dollars on the high end. I knoe a great German militaria dealer in Hamburg who has a few KCs for sale and these prices are what his will range. Actually his are a bit cheaper than the high price I stated.

A KC with oak leaves might go from $6,000 to maybe $10-12,000 Dollars. Then you might have to factor in at just whos cross it was, if it had provinance to it. For example--if say, Erwin Rommels KC came up for sale--I would think that it would be sold for no less than $30,000. Also, im sure the cross would come with a set of his Oak Leaves, a set of Swords, and Diamonds. Then I think you might be looking at a very minimum of $80,000 Dollars or so.

I have heard that a rich collector who wants a set of Wolfgang Luths Oak Leaves and Swords, to his Knights Cross, said that he would pay a cool $50,000 for the set--no Knights Cross of course.

These particular sets of Oak Leaves and Swords are so much sought after by collectors. I know there are at least 2 sets of Wolfgang Luths Oak Leaves and Swords in existance. One set is with the Luth family and the other set was donated to a person who runs a museum (I have seen and touched this set of Oak Leaves and Swords) which are the most closely guarded of all the items stored at this place.

I cant elaborate on these because only a few people who are paid members of this place are allowed to know. This set of Oak Leaves and Swords will remain in this Gents hands until he passes away. After that, I suppose the items will be given back to Luths family.

Sorry for my long answer on your question--I love talking about RKs (KC's) Basically--there is no set price on a KC or KC w/O.L. The same goes for the Pour Le Merite.

Here is a bit on prices on the different years and grades of the Iron Cross.

There are pinbach examples of the 1813 Iron Cross 1st class, I do not know a roundabout price on one as I have never seen one for sale. An 1813 Iron Cross 2nd easily goes for around a cool $1,000.

1870 Iron Cross 1st is around $1,000 or more. An 1870 Iron Cross 2nd goes for about $350.00 and you can add about $100.00 to that if you add the 25 year Oak Leaves device to it. A friend of mine has 2 1870 Iron Cross 2nds and one with the Oak Leaves.

A 1914 I.C 1st can go for about $250.00 and a IC 2nd for about $30.00 to $60.00.

A 1939 IC 1st will go for just a tad less that the 1914 counterpart. A 1939 IC 2nd steadily goes for about $65.00-to-$80.00.

Ive got 2-3 1914 IC 2nds--1 1939 IC 1st (almost mint) and a 1939 IC 2nd. Not much but...........

I will be working on obtaining a 1870 IC 2nd as soon as I can.

Andreas, I do hope that the Eks are reenstated--I can see no reason why not--since it has such a long history behind it well before Hitler or his parents were even thought of.

Andreas, thanks for that info on where German soldiers have been deployed.

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: C.Evans ]</p>

 

Thanks Carl. I was just woundering how much they were worth. The ones at Bovy looked ok, except for some of the black paint (i am guessing it is paint) was worn away. There was nothing saying who they belonged to. Incidentally, there was a guy with us who claimed his Grandfather was a Tiger crewman in the war, but was killed. He told me that a few years ago he had a shield. When he descrided it, it was a Demjansk shield. He said he had lost it, and woundered how much it was worth. Any ideas.

 

Hello Bish: If some paint is missing its still a good piece--it only means that he wore it alot.

A Demjansk Shield eh?

Ive seen them go between $100.00 to about $180.00. His best bet at getting one for a decent price is to get one from Detlev Niemann of Hamburg Germany.

If it doesnt appear there all he has to do is to refresh the page untill Detlevs banner appears.

[ 03. June 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

The point with the EKs is that it was only awarded for a war fought on German soil in defence of Germany. It was a very controversial issue every time it was brought back (1870, 1914, 1939). To bring it back for Afghanistan, which is a quarter round the world from Germany, seems foolish!

 

I do see you have a point there but, and I might not "see" it the way you can, I would think that an award with such a history as it does have-such as this one does, I would think that maybe it could "add" something special back to the German Military.

Im speaking of course as a collector of German militaria and in a historical sence.

I will always admit that our own military valor decorations are nice designs, but not as articulate as alot of German decorations were--especially the Imperial and some of the 3rd Reich stuff.

We have few decorations that can be compared to some of the Germans best past decorations like the Neck Orders Medal of Honor and The Legion of Merit (especially the officers grade of the L.o.M.)

I do like our Purple Heart medal and the Distinguished Service Cross and DFC, as nice enough decorations too. The only think I do not like about the Purple Heart, is that they are currently made with purple plastic instead of enameling--. The early ones were enameled and are much nicer.

I will always favor the ww1 and ww2 German Uniforms over ours any day.

ooops, I lost track (again)

 

Hey Andreas, I just had a brain storm. This would not only satisfy the collectors interests but would be the institution of a new set of nice awards for German soldiers in conflict on forign soil.

Heres my proposal:

To start off with--3 main grades of a valor award.

It would HAVE to be similar to the classic EK design (the general shape) but this could be in three grades to start off with.

Bronze, Silver and Gold.

Which would equal to a War Cross of Honor medal, EK2 and EK1st. These could have enemeling in the colors mentioned or be color washed in those colors.

Spur of the moment thinking and I could think of much nicer awards ideas including the reinstitution of the classic Panzer Assault Badge, Artillery Badge, wound badges, Inf Assault Badge, Campaign Sleeve Shields etc. and the original style of feldspenge--not the current thin feldspange.

Am I REALLY addicted?------or what?

[ 05 March 2002: Message edited by: C.Evans ]</p>

 

Andreas :

Please correct me, but wasn't different grades of the EK given in the 1950's to members of the Bundesluftwaffe and army ?

E

 

Erich, I don't know about that unless you mean the 1957 re-issue EK's. If that is the case here is what I know.

After the new Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe were created, with many ww2 vets joining the new military, they were not allowed to wear their ww2 decorations because of being againts the law to wear something that had the swastika on it (i.e. their combat medals and badges) So what happened was that the West German Govt, had all the awards restruck but with no swastikas.

The new Ek1st class looks more like the Imperial Ek1--leaves instead of swastika. The German Cross in Gold had a cross in place of where the mobile swastika was.

Now in order for a ww2 vet who was in the new military to recieve these new versions of their ww2 awards, the vet had to "trade" them in for the new ones. The Govt then I suppose "disposed" of them somehow, either by destroying them or something.

Many ww2 vets refused to trade in their ww2 awards for the new cheaper ones and had new awards made by jewelers and ther wore these on their tunics. For this to happen though, the vet had to purchase them with his own small salary.

Hope this helps.

[ 06 March 2002: Message edited by: C.Evans ]</p>

 

That's it my friend ! yes, I was thinking of the 1957 EK's and that makes sense as to why they did what they did and with what little they could make from a still reeling government.

E Danke

 

Glad to hilfe

 

Noticed in this Saturday's London 'Times' - a listing of current bestsellers in the 'History' category :-

# 2 : 'The Wild Blue' by Stephen Ambrose
# 4 : 'Band of Brothers' by Stephen Ambrose
# 5 : 'D-Day, June 6 1944' by Stephen Ambrose

( Sigh ) Why does this make me feel depressed . . . . ?

 

I agree. It is like nails on chalk board when I listen to him speak on any documentaries on the History Channel. I have even written a letter to the HC informing them of them risking losing credibility everytime they use Steal it Ambrose. No reply. Oh well, hopefully he gets his just desserts. I will do what I can to help deliever it to him

 

Browsing through the current issue of 'World War II' magazine, I see we now have - - wait for it !.....

'Stephen Ambrose Historical Tours'

With a Europe '44 Stephen Ambrose 'Band of Brothers' Tour including a special dinn....hold on.. I'm think I'm going to be......
Waaaurrrggghhh !