Fair's fair is it not

Russia was always asking America and Britain to open up a second front, yet they weren't willing to open up an attack on the Japanese till about a week before their surrender!!!

 

Interesting point. I think it has something to do with the Russo-Japanese non-aggression treaty, which (maybe) was signed in '41. Add to that, Russia was in a fight for her life with Germany. Detours might not be a good idea.

 

but Russia could have started to send more forces in japans direction since the war had been over for several weeks.

 

Of course the Soviets were not going to get involved at any time in a two-front-war. They had a non-agression pact with Japan and were fighting for the survival of the country in Europe. Just when the war in Europe definately finished, then Stalin broke the pact and let his ambition in the East grow. You must remember the hell of a fight Zhúkov gave the Japanesse in Manchuria in August 1945. And the Soviets helped to Japan's final surrender, just with the menace of a Soviet invasion, that and the A-boms finished it all.

 

With all due respect-Russia still needed to give somethign in return-but I suppose we can forgive them-they are our present-day Allies, they took Berlin, and we did win the war...so...yay Russia!!!

 

You're all assuming that the Allies, particularly the US, wanted a Soviet invasion of Manchuria at all. I think the last thing that the US wanted was Soviet aggrandizement in the East as well as the West. Korea was bad enough, but how about joint occupation of Japan? Not a nice thought.

Jumbo

 

The Russians were clever and at the final moment took land from the Japanese before the Japanese surrendered. Not affecting the war by much I think as the A-bomb had done its duty.

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/

 

Well, Kai. I have always thought that the Japanesse did surrender because of the A-bombs. But I think that the other factor, as important as the A-bomb was the menace of an invasion by the Red Army, the mighthiest Army in the world. Remember that the Japanesse feared the Russian and they did have reasons for it. If Japan was invaded by the Americans, no problem. You can stop them giving them many, many, many casualties. But if you face a Soviet invasion in the North then you don't have any chance of ressisting much less winning, because you will fight a two-front-war and you don't have resources for it. Beside, you are NOT going to beat the Soviets with Kamikazes and giving them casualties. Beside, if the Soviets capture Japan it means the absolute rapìng, destruction and dishonour of a nation... Stalin's anger on the Rising Sun Empire... Not good...

 

yeah i agree with Friedrich oops, i fixed your name Friedrich my bad!and Jumbo...It's a good thing the Russians never invaded Japan. That would have been a mess for the cold war...or...at least would have made it that much more colder...or should i say warmer? i think warmer? whatever!
It would have made the cold war that much more difficult...not to mention it would have really screwed up Japan's future prosperity!

[ 27 September 2002, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Ron ]

 

It is Friedrich, Rone!!!

If little countries with no real industry and infraestructure as Vietnam and Korea made the cold war less cold, then imagine what would have happened with a North and a South Japan?

 

The USSR gained a third of Finland, the Kola Peninsula, some of Finland, Sweden, and Norway and some islands in the East. The USSR had no business doing this. After the war was through a valley deep in the Siberian Tundra hadn't even heard of WWII!!! The USSR is already big enough, it covers about 9-10 time zones. I rhink that Hitler and NAZI Germany could've won the war if they had focused on Britain instead of breaking the non-aggression pact it had with the USSR.

 

AFAIK it was agreed between the Western Allies and the Soviets that the USSR will declare war against Japan within two or three months after the surrender of Germany. So she did on August 8, 1945.

It's ironic to say that the USSR rushed in when the military risk was considerably low. Same can be said about the WAllied invasion in France summer 1944. By this time, the Red Army already broke the Wehrmacht.

Cheers,

 

"Since the Soviet Union was not in a state of war with Japan when the Postdam Proclamation was issued, the Proclamation was issued jointly by the United States, the United Kingdom, and China. The Soviet Union, which entered into war against Japan on August 9, later joined this proclamation"

From the site I mentioned previously above.

The Japanese were still looking for peace consulting Russia as their messenger with the allied.On 8th August Molotov met the Japanese and refused the possibility. Instead mentioned that war was on its way.( Remember June 22nd 1941?)
The western allied were not in peace with Germany during the D-day.

---------

Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese Surrender, July 26, 1945

(1) We-The President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war.

From
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/decade/decade17.htm

Officially Russia was not part of the pact!

-------------

Anyway, by late autumn 1944 Stalin was back to his normal self, and wanted to create more distant relations with the western allied, ordering Molotov to keep "mouth shut and not making any concessions" and not giving in on the issues concerning the power distribution in eastern european countries.I think that at that moment he was only playing the cards for his own good, not interested in ending the war at all except with conditions that would suit him. Nothing "bad" about that considering the position he was in.

------

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender. The Emperor, the lord privy seal, the prime minister, the foreign minister and the navy minister had decided as early as May of 1945 that the war should be ended even if it meant acceptance of defeat on allied terms.

The war minister and the two chiefs of staff opposed unconditional surrender. The impact of the Hiroshima attack was to bring further urgency and lubrication to the machinery of achieving peace, primarily by contributing to a situation which permitted the prime minister to bring the Emperor overtly and directly into a position where his decision for immediate acceptance of the Potsdam declaration could be used to override the remaining objectors. Thus, although the atomic bombs changed no votes of the Supreme War Direction Council concerning the Potsdam terms, they did foreshorten the war and expedite the peace.
The sequence of events just recited also defines the effect of Russia's entry into the Pacific war on 8 August 1945. Coming two days after the Hiroshima bomb, the move neither defeated Japan nor materially hastened the acceptance of sur- render nor changed the votes of the Supreme War Direction Council.
Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

From

http://www.historians.org/archive/hiroshima/010746.html

------------

On July 13, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo wired his ambassador in Moscow: “Unconditional surrender is the only obstacle to peace.” Martin Sherwin, after an exhaustive study of the relevant historical documents, concludes: “Having broken the Japanese code before the war, American Intelligence was able to — and did — relay this message to the President, but it had no effect whatever on efforts to bring the war to conclusion.”

If only Americans had not insisted on unconditional surrender — that is, if they were willing to accept one condition to the surrender, that the Emperor, a holy figure to the Japanese, remain in place — the Japanese would have agreed to stop the war.

From

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/HiroshimaNagasaki.html

So maybe The US did it only to show their power with the A-bomb?!
-----------

August 8, 1945

Stalin informs Ambassador Harriman that the Soviet Union has declared war against Japan and Soviet troops are already moving into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, as per the terms of the Yalta agreement. [He had wanted to enter the war earlier, but the Chinese had been stalling since the end of the Potsdam conference--- in response to Harriman's conniving--- in their negotiations about the exact concessions the Russians would receive at war's end.] (58)

http://www.janrainwater.com/htdocs/coldp15.htm

It wasn´t that simple after all...

----------

On 19 August, the Kwangtung Army
transmitted this order to its field commands and the Japanese capitulated everywhere. [16-115]
The Soviets claimed the Kwangtung Army did not agree to surrender until 19 August. They used this claim as a pretense to acquire more territory and ensure their hold and
future in the Northern Pacific region. During the confusion of the partially effected cease-fire, the Soviets took full
advantage of the motionless Kwangtung Army. They dispatched forward mobile detachments and landed airborne units in key cities. [10-106] On 18 August the Soviets made an mphibious landing on the Kurile Islands. The 25th of August witnessed the surrender of more than 18,000 Japanese
in South Sakhalin and on 5 September the Soviets captured all of the Kurile Islands and took 63,840 POW's. [6-51] The official surrender to the Allied Powers occurred on 2 September 1945.

From

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/RMF.htm

Well, anybody surprised by that?

----------

Quite alot of interesting stuff there. Personally the area lost by the Japanese does not interest me. Russia took advantage of the situation and historically that was theirs to use.Probably Russia knew as an "ally" that Japan was about to surrender, and as well knew the situation in Manchuria better than other nations due to their "friendship".Also they knew that the US was about to drop the bomb, of which Stalin knew for a long time.
I don´t want to go into quarrels about this, as I know it´s a matter of taste.But interesting articles I am always willing to read!

 

Really nice articles! They show us many different perspectives and point of view of this subject.

Actually, I heard that Thruman was hesitating in using the A-bomb for one reason: if they dropped it, then the Russians would know that the Americans have an A-bomb and threfore they are going to get theirs too... So, if the Americans didn't drop the bomb, then Stalin will not expend his money on this thing. I saw it in the film "Hiroshima" by Hallmark, I think. Quite interesting. But truth?

 

After Germany surendered, Japan asked for Soviet help because they did not have a choice. Soviets did not agree because of Russo Japan war. During that war Russia lost an island Kuril (near Japan). So when U.S asked Soviets to join a war against Japan, Soviet government said that they fight Japanese only if they get the island back.

 

Actually Truman wanted to use it on Germany, but his military advisor told him the Germany will surender in a matter of weeks.

Soviet government told Truman to use A bomb wisely just after it was tested.

 

One thing that has been speculated in articles is quite interesting as well:

The Japanese had started the peace negotiations through Russia in spring 1945-who had promised to attack Japan june-august 1945 to USA and England in Jalta conference...-and it is questioned whether Russia sent these Japanese offeres ahead to the western allied.

If Stalin kept such possible offers to him, I think he only wanted to get land for himself, he was not interested in possible peace.

When Japan noted that Stalin was not an ally as according to their non-aggression pact should have been, it was too late to stop the atom bomb??!

I find this quite possible because USSR was Japan´s ally ( heh-heh or so the Japanese thought ) and using Stalin as a messenger does not sound at all weird.

 

This thread reminds me of the pet peeve I have with Japan today. The Japanese "Self Defence Forces" are one of the biggest military forces on the planet, equipped with F-15's ect. Yet they will not lift a finger to help their allies claiming to be just a defence force.
If North Korea were to attack Japan, they would probably let the Americans die to save their country, rather than use their own forces. Does not sound like a fair deal to me.

This thread also reminds me of something I read years ago, so I don't know the source but I read that the US would not allow anyone else to occupie Japan after the war, such as New Zealand, Austrialia, China,or England. I could be wrong about this.

 

Maybe the last firebombing or a couple of A-bombs taught them a solid lesson?

Letting others die while staying out of a war as long as possible sounds familiar to me. F.ex. the U.S. managed to do this for more than one third of WW II.

Though I doubt that the JDA will not defend her homeland.

 

OK Andy, you have a couple of good points there, but the Japanese military is still quite large and well equiped for that area of the world, although I don't know how good they are in combat since I can't remember them doing anything since WWII.