Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Finnish concentration camps in Karelia

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by Artema, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Finnish occupation of Karelia is an interesting topic for or me.
    Some people may not know, that after the annexation of Karelia in 1941, Baron Mannerheim ordered to clean its territory of Russians (which were 45% of 86 000 Karelian population). They were to be deported to the German occupied Russian territory, and prior to deportation were to be placed into concentration camps.
    The first concentration camp was established in Petrozavodsk on October 24, 1941. The total amount of camps was 10, including 6 in Petrozavodsk. About 30 000 people were put into camps, 4000 died of starvation (90% in 1942).

    Russian children in Finnish concentration camp.

    [​IMG]

    I ought to say that these camps were never planned to be places of extermination, unlike some German camps, though prisoners older than 14 had to work 12-16 hours a day and some of them were stamped with hot iron.
     
    Triple C, Tamino and Sloniksp like this.
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,859
    Likes Received:
    2,335
    Thanks for mentionning this Artema, I never heard of those ethnic cleansing camps. What does the sign say?
     
  3. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    "Death penalty for passing the wire fence".
     
    Skipper likes this.
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    21,632
    Likes Received:
    940
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
    I suppose the numbers are based on Osmo Hyytiä´s book "Eastern Karelia 1941-44"? The major reason for these arrests seem to be according to Hyytiä that the Russians were not considered as "trustworthy people" as they could cause terror behind the lines. So as the attack went on the Russians were sent to camps.Also the big figure of Russians in Karelia in 1941 depends on two things: the Finns left Karelia after Winter War and Stalin sent people there from other areas of Russia. SOme 400-500,000 Finns left the area that the USSR got after Winter War and many returned 1941, but left for good in 1944. This huge number of people was relocated in the other areas of Finland.

    The numbers of dead in early war phase was high for these people as well as it was for the POW´s as the Finns were not prepared for feeding them although the orders were to give them as much food as the POW´s who neither got the food they were to receive.
     
  5. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Heikki Ylikangas, Heikki Ylikankaan selvitys Valtioneuvoston kanslialle, Government of Finland
    Laine, Antti, Suur-Suomen kahdet kasvot, 1982, ISBN 951-1-06947-0, Otava
    Maanpuolustuskorkeakoulun historian laitos, Jatkosodan historia 1-6, 1994

    Although I don't know what does it mean :)

    Well, that was exactly what USA did with the Americans of Japanese origin (saying nothing about what was happening in the USSR).
     
  6. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,709
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    With the possible qualifier that the relocation camps in America had the lowest death rate, the highest live birth rate, the best schooling (our local states complained they couldn't keep teachers), no food rationing, free clothing, free medical, Japanese citizens who moved into the "camps" voluntarily, 5,000 Japanese-American students who went to univerity and colleges at government expense during the war, and over 30,000 who left the camps when they found places away from the exclusion zones to move to.

    Not really "concentration camps" were they? Not a "bright and shining moment" in American history, but not "concentration camps" in the Fascist/Nazi/Soviet/Japanese mold.
     
    A-58 likes this.
  7. Kruska

    Kruska Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,866
    Likes Received:
    190
    Found this as well in regards to the internment camps in the US.

    In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation stated that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership". Over $1.6 billion in reparations were later disbursed by the U.S. government to Japanese Americans who had either suffered internment or were heirs of those who had suffered internment.

    And also this website whilst searching - its hysterical - millions of Americans to be placed in concentrationcamps by the New World Order!!!
    AMERICAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  8. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Okay, that's fine.
    The similarity is in the neglect of the presumption of innocence.
     
  9. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,859
    Likes Received:
    2,335
    Glad you guys can keep this gentle. Considering this thread is informative I shall let you go on, but please keep it civil, it's quite a challenge to discuss this matter.
     
  10. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    There is some misunderstanding. The information wasn't about Karelian Isthmus, but about Eastern Karelia which belonged to Russia and was annexed by Finland in 1941. Russians had been living there for centuries together with Karelians.
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,859
    Likes Received:
    2,335
    I have a question. Who owned eastern Karelia between 1917 and 1939? I always thought it was Finnish and annexed by the Russians in 1939-40 , taken by the Finns in 1941 and retaken by the Russians after the war, but know I'm getting confused.
     
  12. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Finland never owned Eastern Karelia. It was an aggressive annexation in 1941.
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    21,632
    Likes Received:
    940
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
    Fair enough. It is Eastern Karelia and here is the best I can find in the net about the maps where Finland went further than the previous border.


    Finland 1939, Finland 1940 after Winter war and the furthest the Finns advanced.

    Of course we should remember it was Mannerheim who denied the Finnish troops for advancing further, refused attacking Leningrad and accepted only sabotage of the Murmansk line. Actually, like mentioned before, for the Finns the war 1942-1944 was not very active except for some troops we had in Northern Finland, I recall. Maybe another reason why Finland was left with independence although I´d say the thoughts of dictators can never be guessed truly.
     
  14. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    21,632
    Likes Received:
    940
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
  15. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,709
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    The problem here is that in time of war, expediency takes precedent over "presumption of innocence", sad but true. The fellow who eventually implemented the relocation order (Gen.DeWitt), had in the summer of 1941 attempted to get Japanese-American Issei to move away from the west coast on their own, with promises from western governors to find homes and jobs for them. Only a few took advantage of the offer as the relations between America and Japan deteriorated.

    Then, before Pearl was attacked he held that wholesale removal was un-necessary and that by individual interviews he and his investigators could separate out the "bad apples". This would have supported the presumptive innocence position, unfortunately the Imperial Japanese removed that option from the equation, and they were shipped out wholesale.

    As they arrived in the relocation camps (a few nasty ones, but most ex-CCC), they were then interviewed and those who had relatives or other places to move to were allowed to leave and their warehoused goods shipped to them. About 30,000 (I believe) were able to leave immediately, or within months. There was one camp, Tule Lake in California, which was the real deal as a camp. It housed the famous "no-no boys", as well as the most radical and outspoken anti-American Japanese. The rest of the camps improved as time went on, but initially they were rather bleak.

    As I said, not a "bright and shining moment" in American History, but understandable to my mind in a "real war, with a real aggressor nation". Not this nebulous "war on terror" business.
     
  16. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Do you think it was because of his humanism or he wanted to avoid losses when assaulting Soviet fortifications in Karelian Isthmus (which were by the way stronger than Mannerheim Line)? Considering that till 1943 Finland had no heavy artillery (correct me if I am mistaking)? (*)
    However it be, personally I am glad that the Finns did not participate actively in Leningrad blockade. Honestly, no irony. My great grandfather died of hunger in the city in January, 1942.

    (*) P. S. Do you know the very interesting story of Soviet railway artillery transporters for heavy naval guns, which were taken by the Finnish army in Hanko in 1943?
     
  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,243
    Likes Received:
    447
    So did my father's would be older sisters (2).
     
  18. AirdefMike

    AirdefMike Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    13
    I would like to point out that Mr. Artema has seen fit to post a famous propaganda picture of one of these Finnish "Concentration" Camps. I dunno but the admins/mods should have something to say about that.

    But it's not surprising...it's common behaviour from Russian posters in every forum I've visited.

    Some of these camps were actually working Gulags in Soviet use...Finns just changed the detainees.

    These camps prevented the use of local population from the Soviets to use as partisans. So the partisans had come from outside of the Finnish controlled areas.

    Ps. the "Great Finland" was actually an Estonian idea. It meant united Finland and Estonia which didn't materialise. Something ironic about the Commie apologists using Great Finland as somekind of reason of the Finnish advance into Eastern Karelia as
    in the end there was a "greater" Soviet Union which annexed areas legally belonging to Finland and COLONISED them.
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    21,632
    Likes Received:
    940
    Location:
    Kotka,Finland
    Interesting fact from the book of Red Army officer pilot Mikko Kopra. During early phase of Winter War as the Red Army did not catch enough Finnish prisoners several soldiers from The Red Army who were from the Finnish speaking area of Karelia, were sent to a prisoner camp near Leningrad, and people from Leningrad went there to watch them. The Guards naturally were kind to the prisoners as they were "own men", but the Soviet citizens that went there were totally unaware of this...

    Axis History Forum • View topic - Mainila shots II soviets

    Unfortunately not translated to English it seems...

    Gummerus Kustannus
     
  20. Beduin

    Beduin recruit

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    I confirm the information of Artema. It was personal experience of my family. My grandmother was put in one of those camps at the time of WW2. She survived, because having an affair with a Finnish soldier but told me that some people there did not.
     

Share This Page