Finnish concentration camps in Karelia

Interesting was also the fact that during Winter War Zhdanov put "own men " into a prison camp...


During early phase of Winter War as the Red Army did not catch enough Finnish prisoners several soldiers from The Red Army who were from the Finnish speaking area of Karelia, were sent to a prisoner camp near Leningrad, and people from Leningrad went there to watch them. Because they could speak Finnish or some words only? Incredible.

"The diary of the red officer Mikko Kopra"

 

Thanks Kai for the link. That is exactly the article that I have used as a source of statistical data in my post #79. It appears that "affection" among the Finns and Russians is mutual and with long history. I don't know whether it is possible to find in Europe neighbouring nations without such regretful heritage. More or less it is rather a rule than exception.

In my country there were several major issues with relatively large number of people involved. Expulsions of Germans and Italians are such sad events from the recent past. Many mass graves were found too. Yes, "MY" bastards did it and I neither deny nor defend these criminals. Even though I share the same ethnicity with them I don't defend them, quite in contrary - I would like each and every of that scum persecuted and punished for what they did. It is a task of every nation to settle accounts with own war criminals. It is the question of clear conscience, personal and national. If my nation hasn't found enough courage to confess and ask for forgiveness, at least I have found piece with the Lord and I regret for every sin that has been done on my soil by my countrymen. I am free thinking and rather independent person who doesn't give a stuff for national pride and the present day interests of average citizens. I am a Christian in the first place and above all.

I have a question:

How many people were persecuted in Finland after the war for the victims of the East Karelian camps?

EDIT:
Althoug, this is a bit of-topic, let me correct this:

A passage from the article you have cited contradicts this:

The total number included in the Finnish nationality group in the Soviet Union according to the census of 1926 was 134,701, 85.5 % of whom lived in the Russian Federative Socialist Republic. It should be noted that the largest concentration of Finns was not in Karelia, but in the Leningrad area. Only one-tenth of the Finns in the whole country lived in Karelia.

 

??? What makes you think any were?

 

By the end of 1947 in Finland 4059 miltary crimes charges were examined by the commission ( Soviet and communist Finns, lawyers in board ) and 694 judgements were given, over half of these were NCO´s or soldiers. Officers were less than 1/5. ( One general, two colonels ).Ca 60% were 1-3 years of prison, a couple of % were over 10 years.

Interesting is that most of these denunciations were given by Finnish people ( leading to 4059 charges ), Soviet given denunciations were low by the end of summer 1945.

The crimes were mostly about crimes against POW´s, but also acts from the mentioned camps where local civilians were put ( violence, theft etc ).

 

I think we´re talking about victims, I don´t think all the 134,000 were victims in this case though ( arrests,sent to Siberia etc ).

Then again: "The studies carried out in the 1980s and early 1990s revealed that almost all the Finnish families in Soviet Karelia were touched by the liquidations. In particular, it seems that male Finns were taken into custody, shot on the spot after the "trial", put to hard labour or deported to distant places like Northern Russia; Siberia and Central Asia. Virtually all the important figures of Finnish origin were liquidated."

Quite alot of children without a father wouldn´t you say...

 

Ah, he meant prosecuted rather than persecuted. That makes more sense.

 

A little off topic but quite relevant....Finlands war of choice...Casemate....Worth a read..

 

Thanks Kai for joining this discussion. I am quite sure you know lots about this subject and I am looking forward to learn from you even more because sources available to me are insufficient. I also appreciate your attitude regarding this theme.

I am a beginner in this area – other similar tread has inspired me to investigate this.

Now let's get back to the subject by first citing essentials from the Wiki:

1. This is quite interesting. As urqh has mentioned, this was a Finland's war of choice. This war began, intentionally or not, simultaneously with the the Barbarossa.

2. It is very important to note that the camps were set by the order of the supreme commander Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim.

3. The primary function of the camps was ethnical cleansing of the entire territory to provide the living space for the Finns living elsewhere, including the Finns from other territories within Russia.

Therefore, my conclusion is, that these camps served to fundamentally change ethnic composition of the region. This is a typical example of well planned ethnical cleansing organized by the Finnish state and its military forces. To achieve objectives Finland needed support from the Nazi Germany.

To support my claims I will make reference to official census data of the Karelian Republic. It is interesting to note that the number of Finns in the Republic of Karelia has significantly increased from 1926 (0.9%) to 1939 (1.8%).Yet, the numbers indicate that Finns were just a little minority with just 1.8% of the total population. Therefore, the “Continuation War” can be qualified as an aggression with clear objective of ethnical cleansing and replacing population with the Finns from elsewhere. Clearly, Russian population of Karelia was considered dispensable. High death rates in the camps during the first year of the war are hence not surprising.

It is also interesting to note that the peak of Finnish population in Karelia (4.2%) was attained in 1959 – i.e. after the war. I am not sure whether this is due to forced relocations or because some Ugro-Finnic citizens have declared themselves as the Finns. Nevertheless, since then, the Finnish population in Karelia is in decline.

Finally, it is worthy to stress again, that the Finns wanted to annex territory with the negligibly small of Finnish population. This clearly reveals the objective, scope ind intentions behind the “Continuation War”.

 

Obvioulsly it can be but the implied logical connection isn't there.

Sorry but that is not at all clear. Indeed if they were to be exchanged it means they were of some value in that regard.

Given what we have been told about the food sitiation in the area the high death rate is not surprising absent any political factors. You are implication is not supported by the facts presented.

This may be interesting but seems to be irrelevant.

Not really. You are looking at one factor and indeed aren't even putting it in context and then claiming it explains the whole war. That isn't reasonable or rational.

 

1. What part of my text did you not understand or is not true? Here's my quote again:

"... many of the Russian(/Ukrainians/Belorussians etc.) were as newcomers/recent refugees ..."

In my post #73 I quoted as follows:

"The two largest groups were 6,000 Russian refugees and 3,000 inhabitants from the southern bank of the River Svir who were forcibly evacuated because of the close proximity of the front line."

6.000 refugees is "many" to me. Also the russification/sovjetification during the soviet times was very fast, as can clearly be seen on the census chart below. For example between 1926 and 1939 the number of the Russians doubled. Some 50.000 of them (or less) were from annexed area. I would call all those "new" Russians etc. as recent newcomers.

Ethnic group 1926 census 1939 census 1959 census 1970 census 1979 census 1989 census 2002 census 2010 census1
Russians 153,967 57.2% 296,529 63.2% 412,773 62.7% 486,198 68.1% 522,230 71.3% 581,571 73.6% 548,941 76.6% 507,654 82.2%
Karelians 100,781 37.4% 108,571 23.2% 85,473 13.0% 84,180 11.8% 81,274 11.1% 78,928 10.0% 65,651 9.2% 45,570 7.4%
Belarusians 555 0.2% 4,263 0.9% 71,900 10.9% 66,410 9.3% 59,394 8.1% 55,530 7.0% 37,681 5.3% 23,345 3.8%
Ukrainians 708 0.3% 21,112 4.5% 23,569 3.6% 27,440 3.8% 23,765 3.2% 28,242 3.6% 19,248 2.7% 12,677 2.0%
Finns 2,544 0.9% 8,322 1.8% 27,829 4.2% 22,174 3.1% 20,099 2.7% 18,420 2.3% 14,156 2.0% 8,577 1.4%
Vepsians 8,587 3.2% 9,392 2.0% 7,179 1.1% 6,323 0.9% 5,864 0.8% 5,954 0.8% 4,870 0.7% 3,423 0.5%
Others 2,194 0.8% 20,709 4.4% 29,869 4.5% 20,726 2.9% 19,565 2.7% 21,505 2.7% 25,734 3.6% 16,422 2.7%
125,880 people were registered from administrative databases, and could not declare an ethnicity. It is estimated that the proportion of ethnicities in this group is the same as that of the declared group.[15]

One also has to remember, that the number and share of the Russians had been rising all the time from abt 0 % in 1700.

(1920 Karjalan työkansan) "Kommuunissa asui runsaat 144 000 asukasta, joista noin 60 % oli karjalaisia ja 37 % venäläisiä pinta-alan ollessa 115 186 km²."
(In 1920 in the Karelian work people's) "Commune lived more than 144.000 people, out of which c. 60 % were Karelians and 37 % Russians. The size of the area was 115 186 km²." (translation mine)

"Vuonna 1922 Arkangelin kuvernementista liitettiin Puutoisten kihlakunta, jolloin kommuunin pinta-ala kasvoi 144 600 km²:iin ja asukasluku yli 200 000:n. Samalla venäläiset tulivat enemmistöksi."
"In 1922 the hundred of Puutoinen from the gouvernment of Archangel was added and the area of the Commune rose to 144 600 km² and population to over 200 000. At the same time the Russians became the majority." (translation mine)

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karjalan_autonominen_sosialistinen_neuvostotasavalta

2. The point is not the share of the Finns (=the mix of the originals Finns, Tavastians and West Karelians), but the share of the Finnic people - the indigenous (East) Karelians and the Vepsians as well as the Finns.

3. The Russians were/are not Karelians but Russians. They might live in Karelia, but that's another thing.

The Russians were the majority only because of the recent heavy (forced) immigration and annexation of Russian populated areas to East Karelia.

4. East Karelia was never annexed to Finland nor was there any plan/need/term of "Finnish Lebensraum". Please show your source for this claim of yours!

Clearly you don't understand the difference between the words "Finn" and "Finnic". The East Karelians (and the Vepsians), the closest relatives of the Finns, are Finnic and the original inhabitants of their country - East Karelia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Finns

5. Repeating your bull**** doesn't make it any more believable. (Most of) the Russians in East Karelia (proper, without the annexations) indeed were "aliens" - often transported forcibly from their own homes.

None of them were to be "eliminated" - as you well know. I dare you to show a source which supports your ridiculous claims!

6. I have never claimed East Karelia to be or have been "Finnish". It however has always been Karelian (=Finnic). The Russians have ruled there for (far too) long. It still does not make it Russian.

7. The "non-Russian" (?) = the Finnic tribes of East Karelia as the original inhabitants were naturally "worthy" to live in their own land. The newcomer occupiers were also worthy to live in their own lands = Russia, Belorussia etc.

Wish you wouldn't continue that Stalinistic propaganda about "people vanishing from the Earth" - especially since you can't show a single source supporting you!

 

It's also worth noting, that the soviets, the Finnish communists and the Finnish state police (in communist hands 1945-48) did their very "best" to prosecute as many Finnish soldiers as possible - with very minor results. Anyway some had to be convicted to please the soviets, so some of the soldiers were told that their patriotic duty is to confess something even without the proper evidence or even real guilt, so that the soviets could be shown some "results".

 

A. As I wrote before, was not. It was a soviet choice to bomb the Finns when the Barbarossa started. Finland was not given a choice.

B. Why is it so very important? Naturally the supreme commander decided everything.

C. I have given you the principal functions of the camps before. They were to feed the people without the means of doing it themselves, to evacuate people from the front zone and to guard the untrustworthy elements. The possible populations changes were to happen only after the war. The non-Karelians were to be returned back to their home areas. In return some Finnic people were to be offered the possibility to move to Karelia. The Finns themselves did not need any more living space.

D. Your conclusions here - as always - are flawed and wrong. You only "conclude" what you - and Stalin - want to believe. Naturally Finland did not want to support nor continue the Stalin's change of ethnical composition (=Russification) of East Karelia.

E. The number of Finns rose in East Karelia because of the communist Finns from Finland, USA and Canada went there to build socialism and to escape the great recession - only to be terminated in the Stalin's purges.

F. Can not. You are totally lost here - again - and can not provide any source supporting you.

G. Hardly.

H. This once again shows your total lack of knowledge. The number of Finns rose in East Karelia because the survived Ingrian Finns were not allowed to return their homes in Ingria from Siberia and other areas, where they had been forcibly transported to in cattle wagons (sic!). Instead many of them went to East Karelia.

I. The possibility to free the suffering kinsmen in East Karelia only came when the soviets started another war against Finland. The Finnish intentions in East Karelia were to prevent the USSR launching new attacks from East Karelia, to possibly gain more easily defencible borders and to have East Karelia serving as a possible bargaining tool in the future peace process. Also freeing the East Karelians was an added bonus. The "annexation" was never the objective of the war, but naturally a possibility depending on the outcome of the war.

 

Krajala, please stop hijacking every theme by turning it into your own monologue about the "Continuation war". There are other treads you may use but this is about:

Finnish concentration camps in Karelia

 

I see. That's why you posted:

Looks to me like you are bringing up the "Contiinuation War" yourself when it suits your purposes.

 

Taminov: It's a bit difficult not to mention the Continuation War when discussing about the matters which happened - or rather did not happen, in this case - in that war. It's like trying to talk about Katyn without mentioning Stalin, or milk without the cow.

I take this post of yours as a sign of not being able to deny my facts nor being able to answer to any of my questions.

Happy Christmas anyway...

 

Someone just got hit by a katyuscha and Iwd passed the NKVD recruiting test with flying colours :waving:

 

Not really guys. Extending this tread to cover the entire "Continuation War" is unnecessarry and serves just the purpose of hiding simple but sad facts about the Finnish Camps in Karelia. I would like to hear a decent explanation from the "experts":

Why the Finnish military authorities have considered kids and their mothers as a treat to the security of the Greater Finland and why they left them die slowly from the most horrible death by starvation?

 

Nobody, except perhaps you yourself, is trying to extend this thread to cover the "entire" Continuation War.

Nobody is trying to hide anything either. Not accepting the stalinistic propaganda as "facts" is not the same as "hiding" something. You have been presented the real facts and explanations with sources - which you BTW have not done. I understand, that for you accepting the truth as a "decent explanation" is impossible, which I regret.

The Finnish military authorities did not consider the kids to be threats to Finland, but some of their mothers, who helped the enemy partisans, spies and saboteurs. Naturally the kids were not separeted from their mothers. As I have explained to you several times earlier in this thread the reasons for their encampment were mainly to feed and accommodate the civilians who were not able to do it themselves as well as to move them away from the fighting zone.

Nobody was "left to die". Unfortunately - thanks to the soviets - there just was not enough food in the first half of 1942. The knowledge of the thousands/tens of thousands of Finnish civilians, who had been killed/left to die or transported to Siberia by the soviets/Russians in the USSR just few years earlier did not encourage to put the soviets/Russians ahead of the Finnish civilians in the feeding order either.

Just for curiosity - what are your feelings towards the Finnish civilians targeted and killed in Stalin's purges before/during/after the WW2? Or towards the Finnish civilians who died during/after the Winter War in the USSR in just few months time? From Finnish Karelia north of Lake Laatokka in the beginning of the Winter War (30th November 1939) c. 1.700 Finnish civilians were captured and taken to soviet concentration camps. By 25th May 1940 102 of them had died - aged 0-82 years.

In the beginning of the Winter War also in Suomussalmi in Northern Finland 1.685 Finnish civilians were left in the mercy of the soviet army. Later most of them could be evacuated, but some 300 were taken away to the USSR in the beginning of 1940. Some were randomly executed, some died of cold/starvation/hard labour, some just "disappeared" After few months only 254 returned.

 

Krajala, you are defending Finish concentration camps with staged photos. Here is a comment of your coutryman about the integrity of associating these staged photos with camps where children were murdered by depriving them from food:

 

Here is a photo of the Nazi delegation visiting a death camp in Petrozavodsk, 1942. Now, tell me where are all these smiling chubby kids from that staged Finnish propaganda photo?