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"Game Changers"

Discussion in 'Wonder Weapons' started by formerjughead, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I think I am picking up what you're putting down. Not necessarily 'Commandos' and 'Insurgents' per se; but, more about the depth and manner they were deployed and unconventional operations they conducted which resulted in the large allocation of resources to deal with them....right?

    Raids in Depth?

    The ALCAN was Army Engineers as was the Ledo Road (Brit & US) both projects were a huge reallocation of resources that great improved the Allied logistical infastructure; I just don't know what we want to call it.

    The other side of the coin would be the "Sea Bees" who either created or repaired facilities accross the Pacific using many innovative techniques and materials: Marsden Matting, Quonset Huts, Mobile Mills and Batch plants.

    Both the ALCAN and Sea Bees are examples of things not necessarily associated with 'Combat Engineers' of either side. These guys actually created the infastructure for not only combat operations; but, also allowed the forward projection of Logistics.

    I don't think Germany created an all weather road from Berlin To Stalingrad.

    Maybe Expeditionary Engineer Units?

    I don't think either one of those assesments is accurate. I have yet to 'shoot down' anything because it didn't fit my opinion; I may ask you to explain why it's a game changer and support your argument or I may ask if it was the device or method of employment that was responsible for the change. Everyone can come up with a laundry list of shiny objects, the hook is how did they affect anything and was the result worth the effort.
     
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  2. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

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    Nailed it.

    Not so much about the vessel, but more the destination.
     
  3. MikeRex

    MikeRex Member

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    Did anyone mention nuclear weapons yet?

    How about sulfa drugs and penicillin for the allies? Again, according to la wik it was responsible for a fairly dramatic reduction in mortality for the American forces right after the Normandy landings: Penicillin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    I recall similar claims being made about aerosolized DDT used in the Pacific Theater reducing casualties from malaria and other tropical diseases.

    IIRC WWII was the first major conflict in which more of the casualties came from combat than from disease, so medicine had made some major strides.
     
  4. dazzerjeep

    dazzerjeep Member

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    Nuclear weapons were mentioned on the first post by Formerjughead!
     
  5. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    They're already up there bud.

    We could add Blood Plasma, Quinine, Water Purification, Field Hygiene and a bunch of other advancements in medicine and the treatment of casualties; but, is there one thing we could call it?
     
  6. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Brad, I've been following the development of this thread. While I don't have any specifics, I'd like to suggest two categories for consideration. Instead of Expeditionary Engineer Units, why not just call it Expeditionary Engineering and Logistics? I don't think limiting it to just the units includes all of the planning and development necessary to accomplish the rather astounding feats of the Allies in both areas.

    As for the growth of medicine, can you just put it down as Advanced Combat Medicine?

    My hope is that when you have accumulated a fairly wide collection of categories, you might break down each one with some examples of what they mean. If you can accomplish that and put the results in the original post, it might make a good Sticky thread, or even go into Sacred Cows. It's been an interesting journey.
     
  7. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Expeditionary Engineer Units were really responsible for the Allied projection of Logistics. If it weren't for these guys building roads, harbors, airstrips, railways etc. the Allied logistics chain would have been huge. As it was, by building these bases, the Allies were able to compartmentalize and reduce the chance of disruption due to enemy attack. I see it as the Allies put as much into creating a supply and support infastructure as they did in actual combat operations.

    Advance Combat Medicine and Life Saving Techniques? I don't know, you also have the prophylactic medical steps such as: inoculations, personal hygien, field sanitation as well as the innovations in the actual medicine, treatment of wounds and evacuation. I know it's there, I just can't think of a concise way to put it.


    I was really kind of hoping that each might be discussed and supported when they were presented and that has been very hit or miss. I think the moral of the thread is that as much attention was paid to the handle of the spear as there was to the tip.
     
  8. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    What about the western Allied better alocation and deployment of reserve's, replacement and training. Allied pilots rotated back to training units to train large crops of new pilots. Combat formations kept closer to authorised strength and not fought into the ground. Fewer units but better ones overall?
     
  9. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Was that ability to train and replace the result of something else though? I see where you're going; but, I think there are other factors that allowed better training by the Allies and the ability to train more troops to a higher standard was a coralary to other events and innovations.

    Axis training and replacement was heavily impacted (no pun intended) by Allied bombing and Air Superiority. As the war progressed both Germany and Japan were forced to field troops and flight crews with less and less training. Conversely in the US as the war progressed troops and flight crews received more and more training as training techniques were standardized and became more efficient. US troops in North Africa, Philipines and Guadalcanal had no where near the training troops received in the later years of the war; whereas during the Battle of Berlin many of the Heer troopers were either very young or pressed into service from support branches and were not necessarily as well trained as the troopers who entered Poland in 1939.

    Maybe Standardized and Uniform Training?
     
  10. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Perhaps, "Human Resource Integration and Allocation" to include civilian workforce and military personel?
     
  11. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    The Civillian workforce is an interesting angle. My grandfather had quite a lengthy deferrment because he was a certified welder working in the Benicia Shipyards during the war. He finally had to report for duty in September of 1945 and was released in January of '46. So it appears to me that he was Critical to the War effort right up to the time Japan surrendered.

    Hitler on the otherhand cleaned out Peenemunde and sent everyone to the Russian front for a while.

    So, Standardized Training and Utilization of Civillian Skills for War Effort?
     
  12. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Sounds good to me.
     
  13. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    A quick look at the opening post and it looks like the Arsenal of Democracy has a commanding lead; were things really that lopsided?
     
  14. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    Apparantly so. The Axis couldn't keep up once the US got onto a full war footing. Once you close the submission period for game changers, the Arsenal of Democracy will be as large as the rest combined.
     
  15. Vinny Maru

    Vinny Maru Member

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    As far as the production impact, read the article on the Nihon Kaigon site Grim Economic Realities. This is presented with respect to the US vs Japan, but gives you some idea of the capabilities of U S production during the war. The introduction pretty much sums it up.
     
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  16. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member

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    I see three:

    1. British and Commonwealth tenacity
    2. Russian masses of troops
    3.US Military production + additional troops
     
  17. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Are you saying that the Arsaenal of Democracy in it's entirety was more important than than the Sturm Geweher, Jets and Tiger tanks; the hell you say?

    IT really makes you wonder what they were thinking; did they just not realise who they were dealing with?

    Take a moment and read the thread.
     
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  18. MikeRex

    MikeRex Member

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    D'oh; missed that by just looking at the list.



    Quinine was around long before the '40s; IIRC that was actually when they got around to replacing it with artificial and other new antimalarials. Likewise, germ theory and understanding of infections wasn't new either. What was new was that they could do something aside from make the immune system comfy and hope it won.

    "infection and disease management" maybe.
     
  19. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

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    I won't take anything away from the sterling work in the medicine department. But in the light of the thread was there any discovery that would have changed the game if you took it out?

    I am pressed to say no. The most dire rapport on medical conditions are mostly a consequence of the logistics breaking down. (eastfront, and pacific most common IMHO)

    As I understand the thread what we are looking for are developments of equipment, technique or doctine that changed the fortune of the war for a nation(s).
     
  20. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I think the preventative or prophylactic measures are what was innovative. Things like personal hygiene, camp sanitation and a better understanding of infection and wound treatment were very key in keeping soldiers healthy and in the fight. The ability to prevent infections enabled small wounds to heal quicker and be dealt with at a lower level of treatment allowing soldiers to return to battle sooner.
     

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