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German advances in Stalingrad after Operation Uranus

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe October 1939 to February 1943' started by HerrGarten, Aug 10, 2015.

  1. HerrGarten

    HerrGarten New Member

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    Hello,

    I have a question about how the frontlines inside Stalingrad were changing after the launch of Operation Uranus on 19 november '42. I have a detailed map in a German book showing how the Germans were pushing ever further inside Stalingrad from mid september till 18 november '42. The next map in that book is a bit more close-up of 25 january '43.
    I'de like to know how the frontlines shifted from 19 november '42 till the end on 2 february '43. All I can find is "bitter fighting", "German forces being pushing inside the city center" and "German forces being cut up into southern and the smaller northern pocket". Were they still pushing into the city parts that had been in Sovjet hands till then? Were there any succesful counterattacks?

    I've found yet only this map when searching for Operation Ring:
    [​IMG]
    I don't speak any word of Russian, but it sure looks like Stalingrad on 9, 12, 20, 23, 28, 29 january '43. It doesn't show any German advances inside the city itself, yet it also looks like there is no more northern pocket after 28 january? :confused:
     
  2. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    The upper right hand is the date, which is the month of January, the red arrows are Soviet attacks and the green are German. It looks to me like there were counter attacks which one in the south did recover territory. The big red line is the start of the month and then each numbered line corresponds to a date. I would suggest the dashed line in black is probably rail lines
     
  3. HerrGarten

    HerrGarten New Member

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    Thanks for the answer. It's my best guess too that the dashed grey-black lines are raillines, straight grey would then be main roads. However in the books about Stalingrad I have (A. Beevor: Stalingrad) + (J. Hellbeck: die Stalingrad Protokolle), each map is a little bit different when it comes to raillines. Split in very different angles, or not split at all for example. I can be a perfectionist for these kind of things. I guess that those things inside the large red ring and on the other bank of the Wolga are Russian artillery.
    With the Russians advancing mainly from west to east and the dashed greenlines as retreating Germans, it looks like the Germans were mainly fighting a defensive war, with a few counterattacks in the fields around the city. So no more real attacks to conquer the rest of Stalingrad?
    Still, the tiny 6-line (29 Jan.) looks a bit out of place to my limited knowledge.
    Does anyone have a suggestion what those four red-dashed circles with a + can be?
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    My understanding is that many Soviet maps of the USSR were deliberatly "off" a bit as a security measure. Some of the variations in maps may be due to that.
     
  5. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    combat air patrols is my guess
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    German defensive doctrine called for attacks to be met with local reserves ,"gegenstoss" and counter attacks organised at a higher level "gegen angrief"(?) The Germans didn't do passive defence in the world wars. Not all counter-attacks succeeded nor gained ground that could be shown on the map. I am sure that the troops in Stalingrad followed their tactical principles within logisric limitations. .
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You can compare that with the official Soviet map: click HERE.
     
  8. HerrGarten

    HerrGarten New Member

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    Thanks! That map is so much like one I've got in one of my own books about Stalingrad, down to the railway-lines and layout of the buildings. Exception is that your's the Russian attacks from 25 Jan. till 2 Feb. as well, where as mine lacks that. Seems clear to me that the other of that book copied his map from your source.

    On a side note, I've started reading that book, but as it is in German and I'm still learning that, I do read it rather slowly. It's called "Die Stalingrad Protokolle" by Jochen Hellbeck (The Stalingrad Records). I've haven't gotten to the point yet where WW-II has started for the Russians, but it's very interesting none the less.
    The autor also has some remarks about what Beevor has written in his book, wich is interestion for me to note, because Beevor's Stalingrad-book has gotten me into the whole WW-II books in the first place.

    In short, what I know to date, is that there has not been any (succesfull) German counterattack after they were surrounded.
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You're welcome Herr Garten.

    I must admit that I was perplexed with the concept of "German advances in Stalingrad after Operation Uranus" itself. Inside the Kessel there was just a single but utterly failed Seydlitzs' unauthorized attempt to trigger break-out. Serious attempts of German advances took place only out of the Kessel during the Unternehmen Wintergewitter, commanded by Manstein, who was Paulus' superior at that time. It is important to realize that the Wintergewitter was not intended to enable a break-out but just to establish a link with the 6th Army. Any advances of the 6th Army were out of question - forbidden. The only role of Germans inside the Kessel was to stand fast, sacrificed to enable rescue of the remaining units of the Army Group from being entrapped at Caucasus. Essentially, the 6th army was traded-off for the rescue of the remaining units of the AGS.

    May I suggest you another interesting book on this subject: Marcel Steins' "Der Januskopf, Feldmarschall von Manstein. Eine Neubewertung". Your "Die Stalingrad Protokolle" is at the top of my wish-list.
     
  10. Nordwind511

    Nordwind511 Member

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    Most of the actions after Uranus were of a defending, consolidating or withdrawing character. There were several counter-attacks of different elements of the German 6th army after encirclement too, but these attacks didnĀ“t succeeded nor gained much ground. On 23th of november the 29th Infantry Division (mot.) counterattacked an enemy armored penetration west of Karpovka by the 235th Tank Brigade. This was one of the last "greater" offensive attacks which I could find in the war diaries ...
     

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