German Aircraft Cannon

'Experten' help wanted !

I cannot find any concise information about German aircraft cannon. Sitting in front of me are three different shells : -

-20mm,brass parallel-sided case 1940-dated ( 'Battle of Britain' type )
-20mm, steel necked-case, 1944-dated
-30mm steel case, 1944-dated ( already discussed under 'Militaria' thread ).

And then there was a machinegun with larger calibre than 7.92, I think ??

Can anyone tell me about the guns, differences, usage etc ? I can find plenty about RAF aircraft weapons, but not Luftwaffe...

( I am NOT talking about the much larger, Oerlikon-type Flak 2cm ).



[ 26 July 2002, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

 

Tank-busting Stukas of Hans-Ulrich Rudel equipped with HEAT 37mm cannon in adapted wheel spats or underwing ports...

57mm/75mm cannon in He111, Ju88, Do17, Me410 etc to use against Allied shipping, and as a last-resort before ramming against heavy bomber formations...

 

Martin, I cannot help. Let me show you my face of knowledge:

 

In danger of answering my own thread again...

I've discovered the type-numbers of the guns : -

13mm - MG 131
20mm - MGFF
20mm - MG 151
30mm - Rhb Mk103 / 108

What were the differences/effectiveness, though ? There doesn't seem to be much available on the 'net about this subject.

 

Ok my friend, do you want to know what type of a/c was fitted with what armament ? Englishman AG williams has a web-site dedicated to a/c cannon and it is the best on line source available. Of course I do not have the url dang it ! We did cover the wepaons s7ystems of the 13mm, 2cm and 3cm at length on our defunct web-site but must aquire the cd from my English web-master firend so I can do some changes. This of course will not halep you now sonce the site will not be avialbe until next year after we revamp it a bit and put on many new first person accounts.
I am assuming yopu want trajectoy, rates of fire, things like this ?

Basically the 13mm is the equivalent of the US .50 cal but did not have the range due to it's short barrel length. The rounds was iether AP or HE/AP shot, the 2cm and this totally depends on the year of production, but I can tell you that from late 44 till the end the a/c round was steel cased and the 2cm HE came in about 6 differnet versions alone. I'll have to look up the specks as I do have them for the 2cm. The 3cm I mentioned in the other thread. Minen with blunt tip and yellow round body or Minen Incendiary with pointed tip. both rounds when hitting the aluminum skin of Allied a/c would immediately cause a fire. The 3cm round was the most destructive round in the Luftwaffe arsenal. The 3.7 was used by ground attack units such as the Ju 87, and Hs 129. Getting back to the Mk 103 3cm this round was tungsten based like the 3.7cm rounds used by the Panzer staffeln.
The 3.7 was also used a bit by the ZG gruppen in the Bf 110G-2 against US bomber formations but was a slow firing weapon. Quite destructive but due to the limited manuevarbily and slow speed of the Bf 110 the useage was discontinued.
The Bf 410 was used by ZG gruppen ZG 26 and ZG 76 against the US bombers and the many configurations of the 2cm was effective. The 50mm was used(not the 57mm), against the B-17's and B-24's, and it was lethal for sure. One round could bring down a bomber. The weapon jammed repeatedly and was way to slow for aerial combat as the 410's usually got one pass and missed their targets.
The 7.5 was primarily an experimental wepaon but the Hs 129 used it on occaion on the Ost Front. A heavy wepaon and very slow firing, this with the result the Hs 129 was not a fast a/c to begin with and it's use was discontinued and the refitment of the Mk 103 was installed......

more later. off to work Martin.

Hope this answered just a touch of your questions in mind ?

E

 

WOW! If the 30mm was so lethal, I cannot imagine the Mee-262 with four of those sh...!!!

Thanks, Erich!

 

Friedrich :

A little something from our forth-coming book on Kmdo Welter (10./NJG 11) The Me 262A-1a's were equipped with 4 3cm weapons. All rounds were 3cm Minen. The pilots hated the round because so much debris would be blasted off the Mosquito bombers/night fighters that they shot down and would many times damage either the fusleage of the 262's or jam the portals of the engine housings. Kurt Welter would get extremely mad if any pilot including himself would land with a damaged 262 during combat.
Also the pilots could select limited fire with only 2 of 3cm weapons. Either the upper two or the lower two by a flick of a switch on contol column. Two 30mm's were enough in combat with any fighter or bomber really......

more to come !

E

 

Martin :......more to confuse you and everyone else including myself

Mk 108 explosive charge, this in references I have made over the years with leading authorities, and this for our web-site in 1999.

Rheinmetall-Borsig developed a 330g explosive or Mine projectile for the cartridge with an explosive charge of 72g, with tracer. DWM kompany Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabrik, concurrently developed a similiar projectile with an 85 g expl;osive charge without tracer..(very powerful !) The HE used was not identified(I have the info somewhere), but was probably RDX(it was), or a similiar cyclonite/hexogen based compound. This is descirbed in "The development of German a/c Armament to 1945, by major-Ing. Erich Mix-USAF Historical Study # 193. Two additional sources of info on the Mk 108 and other weapons are Flugzeug Bewaffenung by Hanfried
Schliephake, Motorbuch Verlag 1977, and the "German a/c Guns WW1 and WW 2 bu Edward Hoffschmidt.....lousy pics by the way !, 1969, WE Inc.
For other German a/c weapons, from Jagdwaffe Flugzeug-Handbuch

MG 17 7.92 1175 length 159 height, weight: 10.2 rounds: 1200 vm/sec 905

MG 131 13.1 1168 length 123 height, weight: 19.7 rounds: 930 vm/sec 710/750

MG 151 15.1 1917 length 190 height, weight: 41.4 rounds 700 vm/sec 850/1025

MG 151/20 20mm 1767 length 190 height, weight 42.3 rounds 720 vm/sec 695/810, higher rate in Fw 190A-8 variants.

Mk 103 30mm 2318 length 348 height, weight 145 rounds 420 vm/sec 860

Mk 108 30mm 1057 length 216 height, width: 222, weight 58 rounds 650 ( this is a bit high as normally via Sturmgruppen Fw 190A-8/R-2 and R-8 variants it would be 575 to 600. vm/sec 520.

another posting coming soon on the 2cm ammo, if I can read the hen scratches.....gosh I need a bloody magnifying glass !

E

 

ok I will now attempt to break down the amount of types of rounds of the listing I made.....I hope !

7.9mm from October 1942. 8 different combat types, 7 practice types and two dummy rounds.

13mm from May 42 through december 42 and into June of 44. 6 different combat types, 4 practice.

15mm from may 42, june 44, 7 different combat types, with 5 practice.

20mm from April 42, October 42, June of 44. 13 different combat types. 4 practice in april of 42.

Also 14 additional sub-types including Minen and minen-tracer and 4 additonal practice rounds.

30mm from June 44 onward. 9 combat types with 5 practice. later an additional 8 combat types with increased performance....Minen.

3.7cm from December 42 through June of 44. 4 combat types with 5 practice.

5 cm from June 1944, 4 combat types with 2 practice.

7.5cm 2 combat types with Ap-T 39, not self destroying and the other was HE 34, not self destroying. Two practice rounds.

I also have via one reference over 42 different fuzes for these rounds. Nowhere complete of course.

time for a hand rest.....

E

 

Ok back from the attack in Norway.....yeah I'm heavily involved in aviation archaeology and have just found 4 crashes/with some Norwegian friends; of Ju 88 D-5's from 1.(F)/120 near Sola. A great team of Norwegians have found some most unusual items from a time long ago and almost forgotten.....I'll share with you the materials and maybe some pics later. Right now the weather had closed in today with low fog.....stay tuned !

back to the Mk 108 for Martin. Just checked through the D.(Luft) T.6108 Mk 108 Waffen-handbuch, but sorry to say this is a maintenance manual only. Nothing on the ammo but I have other "stuff" if intersted. Onto the 2cm ammo from Mauser.

These are for rounds, colour of body, fuze #'s, bands if coloured, materials of shell casing and filling, etc.

A.P. black body no band steel material no filling, no tracer, no fuze

A.P./I black body 0.2" band-blue- at .7" from the nose with .2" band above D.B. // A.P. steel material phosophorus 52 in light alloy case. No tracer and no fuze

A.P./H.E. Balck body .7" yellow band at .2" above D.B. or .2" yellow band .7" below nose // A.P. steel material, Penthrite waz 76 filling, no tracer, 17mm of penetration, no fuze

Tracer Olive green body, Yellow and mauve above driving band. Steel material, no filling, Brilliant white 1.8 tracer and no fuze.

Tracer Olive green body, yellow above driving band and white below nose with 3 arrows stamped on nose plug. Steel material, no filling Brilliant white or yellow tracer. no fuze.

I/T navy blue body, 0.2" red band or maroon band. Steel material incediary similiar to green band type. Approx. 4 seconds of tracer, aluminum detenator in nose(strikerless)

H.E./T. (8. D) Yellow body black 0.4" above driving band. Steel material Penthrite wax 57.1 Yellow tracer, 2.0 seconds. Fuze : A.Z. 1501 (Brass)

H.E./T. (8. D) Yellow body, no bands, Steel material Penthrite wax 57.1 Pale green tracer at 1.4 seconds. no penetration levels, A.Z. 1504 Aluminum Fuze.

H.E./T. (8. D) Steel, unpainted body with white band above driving band. Steel material, Penthrite wax at 49.2. Brillian white tracer at 6.0 seconds, Fuze: A.Z. 1502 Brass

H.E. Minen Projectile Yellow body with black band below fuze. Drawn steel hemispherical base with Penthrite wax-262 // no tracer, Fuze : A.Z. 1502 (Brass)

H.E. Minen/Incendiary ( I have two of these rounds .... ! Yellow body marked capital M in black with dates. Green band below fuze. Drawn steel hemispherical base. Penthrite wax, incendiary pellet. no tracer, Fuze : Z.Z. 1505, steel, brass coated.

H.E./I/T (8. D) Yellow body with 0.2" blue 0.4" above driving band or 0.25" blue below fuze // steel material penthrite wax-55 Incendiary 6. Fuze: Aluminum A.Z. 1504

H.E./I/T (8. D) Yellow body with brown above D.B., blue below fuze. Steel material bright night tracer, Fuze : Aluminum plated A.Z. 1504

H.E./I/T (8. D) Yellow body with 0.25" green band below fuze, 0.2" red band above D.B., Steel material with Penthrite wax-36, Incediary 34. // Deep Yellow tracer, and Fuze : Aluminum plated A.Z. 1504.

Well martin here is the 2cm listing and this should help you in case you or anyone else sees a few of these on a table at a gun show for sale....

more later / boom !!

E

 

Erich, my friend - what can I say ?

I shall have to sit and read through this tomorrow. As you probably guessed, I'm building a nice little collection of aircraft ammunition & your information is most fascinating.

( And yes, Friedrich, the 30mm round is BIG - much larger in reality than I'd imagined ).

 

Glad you enjoyed it Martin ! Good luck on forming the materials together. maybe Otto can archiv this material in some way for others to use. As I mentioned I've got a bit of reference materisl(s) set aside, at least at one point over the past moons, and then took the Minen sources for our web-site. What I hve found, the 3cm Minen is about 205 in length and the /night tracer at the base is 32.4 and the incendiary round with electric primer/self-destroying is 32.5 at the base. The latter one is marked fuze : ZZ 1589 B and has a blunt tip. The night tracer also marked with a black Captial M has the fuze : ZZ 1589 A.
both are designed for maximum blast effect in air to air combat, with 1 to 4 rounds able to bring down a heavy bomber. 1 round would suffice to bring any Allied fighter down. Muzzle velocity for both is 500 M/S.

Let me share if I may the fuze make up of the H.E./I fuzes that I own for the 2cm Minen round.

Self destroying Fuze ZZ 1505 developed by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken A-G Lübeck, as it was used in the 2cm Mauser ammo in air to air combat. Like the 1502 it was of the sensitive type required to functionon a 2mmpaper screenat 100 metres. When the projectile was fired, the centrifugal force caused the steel balls(8) to fly out into the enlarged portion of the retainer fing thus locking the percussion plunger and its compressed spring in place. The same force caused the brass spiral ribbon to unwind and increase in diameter until the shoulder on the striker could pass through its cener. By this time the projectile was a few meters away from the muzzle of the gun and the projectile was armed. On hitting the target the steel balls went back into their housings and the firing pin, activated by the compressed spring, pierced the primer cap.
If no impact took place within a range of about 2000 meters, the speed of rotation dropped in such an extent that the thrust of the balls against the angle surface was insufficent to support the firing pin spring. The primer was then fired and the projectile destroyed in the air.

A little technical I know but might be of some use for those who have ever wondered what ever happened to non-impact rounds flying in the air.
This from the old OOP title German a/c Guns and cannons, Fl bordwaffen Großdesutschland (GD).

enjoy as there will be tad bit in the near future...

E

 

Martin :

A tee wit more before I stop tonight...

for the 2cm M round.

had Penthrite wax as a desensitizing agent. RDX / mixed with powdered Aluminum which boosted the blast effect by 30 %.
Allied forces translated this into RDX / Cyclonite/Hexegen, which is a cyclo-trimethylene-tetramine which is 1.3 to 1.4 times more powerful thatn TNT ! German pilots called the round Hexogon.

Penthrite was the filling for the 2cm He conventional and M-Geschoss. Replaced l;ater with HE and Aluminum powder, know as HA. 41 or known for the 3cm as well, Ausf A=Aluminum, and Ausf C= Cyclonite, which formed the HE/I rounds. For the 2cm there was 72 to 85 grams. This is intersting as I believe the figures quoted are for the 3cm round and here is why.
From Forderungen an die Entwicklung von Fligerbordwaffen bei Bühler, Berlin

Kaliber 2cm. Minengeschoß, Sprengladung, 18g, 18 treffer to knock down a bomber
Kaliber 3cm. Minengeschoß, sprengladung, 72g, 4 treffer
Kaliber 5cm. bzw. Minengeschoß, Sprengladung 350 g.bzw und 420g, 1 treffer

3cm weapon 48 rounds fired in 5 seconds, about 140.4kg 1057mm, 88 shots in 9 seconds/ this at about 500 metres which is not that close for attacking German a/c against Allied bomber formations. // from Vergleichende Wirkung verschiedener Waffen bis 30mm Kaliber.

gute Nacht ! Zzzzzzzzzzzz.....

E

 

Oh God! Too many technique data and too much alcohol! I don't think they can be mixed... I wil read it later when my mind is brighter...

 

What Friedrich, too much Kölsch !! shame on you young man........ Rülps !

E

 

My mind is reeling ! But this is one thread I shall refer back to regularly.

I'm starting to wonder about the comparison between German 20mm cannon and Hispano - but I think I'll leave that for another thread !!
I'm very interested in the 30mm gun, though. Not very much seems to have been written in English about this weapon....

And Erich , do keep us posted about your 'digging' adventures - I for one am happy to read anything at all about aviation archaelogy.

 

glad it is of some help Martin !
My notes are scattered all over and mixed up with Sturmgruppen pilot accounts, so I need to sort them out, as I have accounts from the pilots themselves on the effectiveness of the cannon.....I'll take a closer look as my office need a thourough cleaning and I know the wife is getting awfully tirede of all the apers on the floor.
A/c fitted with the 3cm.

Bf 109G-6, G-6/AS, G-10, K-4
Fw 190A-7/Mk, A-8/R-2, A-8/R-8
Bf 110G-2, G-4 nachtjäger
Bf 410B
Me 262

maybe other experiments I have not listed.

back soon.

E

 

Thanks again, Erich.

I was actually wondering about the muzzle velocity of the 30mm. The shell looks odd ; the projectile is longer than the propellant case (unusual !).
Did the pilots have to get in relatively close for a kill, hence the danger of being hit by aircraft fragments ?

Only guessing, here !

 

Maxiumum firepower with a short chamber, no recoil and light weight, besides easy of manufacture and cheap as well. A perfect little monster is what the short range Mk 108 was with the most powerful cartridge amde in WW 2. The sturmgruppen that I have referred to flying heavily armored Fw 190's would get in as close to 30 metres to assure a kill against the viermots. Wish our site was still up Martin as I would send you there and then you would be able to read and shake your head at the first person accounts by both US and German servicemen. The effective range for the 3cm was at 100 yards and less. The muzzle velocity was not good and it was a slow operating cannon with 55 rounds per gun installed. The Fw 190A-8/R-2 and R-8 was fitted with twin mg 131 in the cowling, the R-8 this was removed and faired over. Twin 2cm in/ one in each wing and one 3cm in each outer wing. Over 500 pounds of extra armor to protect guns, ammo feed and the pilot made this sturmböcke a heavy a/c and not suited at all for air to air, fighter to fighter combat. The reason for a high flying Bf 109 staffel to try and take on US escorts.

got to run.....

E

 

30 metres in - those combats must have really been something....