German Bunker with Armored Turret

A U.S. Army Signal Corps photo from the NARA, College Park, MD.

The caption reads:

"At the time of their withdrawal in the Saalis area, France,
Germans were building a cement foundation dugout as an
enclosure for this German 88 mm. gun, shown with turret
and frame."

Date: 29 November 1944

Photographer: Smith, Jr.

III-SC 196914, Credit NARA.

If anyone would like a high-resolution version of this photo, just let me know.


Dave

 

Would this be a "Pantherturm"?

 

It looks like they improvised this one with a Panther turret off a tank. The Pantherturm as made from the factory lacked the turret basket, commander's cupola, wouldn't have had zimmerit applied and, would not have had markings.

 

Though obviously this turret in the Vosges isn't one, there was also a specially designed/manufactured 'Panther' turret for fortifications - the 'Ostwallturm' or 'Ostbefestigung', with a narrower mantlet, cupola replaced by a simple hatch with a single periscope, & roof armour beefed up from 16mm to 65mm.

I know this photo of a bunker under construction reasonably well, though I've always been mildly puzzled as to exactly what's going on.
Either it's just awaiting the concrete or steel panels seen on other mountings, or they've fixed the turret to the frame that normally held the panels, and are about to lower it into the ground due to lack of 'official' materials.
Presumably the former, but at the time of it's placement there seems to have been much vacillation over late Pantherturm deployment in France, and while it seems steel was the specified choice of material for that particular frame; any extemporised alternative's possible, as even wood of the required type was becoming short supply (The use 'Sockellafetten' in the period - just the tank guns on very simple fixed mounts - perhaps underlines that desperation).

Other threads on Pantherturm (& turret emplacements in general) here:
http://www.ww2f.com/weapons-technol...e-tank-turrets-fortifications.html#post300928 http://www.ww2f.com/information-requests/19344-tank-turret-emplacements.html
http://www.ww2f.com/modelling/24121-pantherturm-project-begins.html

~A

 

Adam you never cease to amaze me

 

Dave,

That is a very interesting photo. It first appeared in Vol. II of The Seventh US Army Report of Operations, 1944-1945. Here is a little historical context for the photo.

The Saales area was in the zone of operations of the 3rd Infantry Division during the VI Corps offensive of 20 November – 4 December. This offensive was launched to clear the Vosges Mountains south-southeast of Strasbourg and north of Colmar in support of the XV Corps effort to force the Saverne Gap. The 79th Infantry Division broke through German lines at Saverne allowing the 2nd French DB to move rapidly forward to liberate Strasbourg. Apparently both corps encountered these static tank guns. After debauching from the Saverne Gap TF Quilichini of 2nd DB’s CCD was held up by a number of these guns, but this defensive line was outflanked by TF Minjonnet of CCL, as the 2nd DB advanced on Strasbourg.

Duckbill

 

take a closer look at the make up of this almost silly bunker with a weak camo, all you have is a barrel and Panther turret non-operational. wonder if this was suppose to put fear in the Allies hearts as they came up on this thing, no doubt as the Germans were good in setting up bogus arms on the ground during 44-45

 

Erich,

Again, this photo must be viewed in its proper historical context.

Seventh Army was the first army in modern times to force a passage of the Vosges Mountains. This singlular accomplishment was no minor feat of arms.

The subsequent breakout via the Saverne Gap, and rapid advance on Strasbourg was equally stunning. Combined, these events caught the Germans with poorly prepared and often incomplete defensive positions. This is why TF Minjonnet, CCL, 2nd DB was able to outflank one of the defensive lines.

Had Seventh Army's advance through the Vosges taken a little longer, German defenses would have been far more formidable. After all, successful offensives, particularly across harsh, unfavorable terrain, do much to catch the enemy unprepared -- that is what happened, and the photo stands as testimony to the skillful leadership within Seventh Army and 6th Army Group.

Duckbill

 

The Pantherturms did great execution among allied units, particularly along the Gothic line. I've read veteran accounts of them becoming rather substantial psychological bugbears for the attackers too - well emplaced that's a damned good gun and a very small target. Quite a cost-effective use of materiel really.

Two comments that are immediately to hand from Gerry Chester's fine site:
Churchill/Sherman Deployment, Page 3

Photographs Italian Campaign

The Futa Pass turrets are worth a Google too.

I suspect Dave's original picture is more an indication that emplacement was begun in the area, but too late for the turrets to be properly fixed up.
Had a shufti, & Neil Short has 16 turrets intended for the area this one was in, but by December '44 it was realised that time and infrastructure would not allow, so they withdrew most (all?) to the Westwall before emplacement was completed.

~A

 

the area was not alone Duck even in the Metz area with W-SS defending so-called fortresses the Wehrmacht was not all prepared for the blows they were to receive in fact the defending was a disaster for the German armed forces, although termed as resilient they paid with their lives, the 9th AF was quite crucial in allowing US ground forces to penetrate at a much quicker pace

 

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment regarding the defenses at Fortress Metz.


In his book The Lorraine Campaign Dr. Cole describes the effectiveness of the defenses in and around Metz. It required weeks of heavy fighting to overcome them, and Third Army suffered heavy casualties in the effort. Even the well defended Orscholz Switch Line which protected the German right flank just to the northwest of Metz proved a tough nut to crack.

At Metz Patton's Third Army did not engage in a battle of maneuver like Patch's Seventh Army did as it forced its way out of the Vosges Mountains and captured Strasbourg. The differences in the abilities of these two generals in the operational art of maneuver warfare could not be more marked when comparing these two battles.

Duckbill

 

I have several books on Metz Duck including the official Stormflight to the end of the 17th W-SS Pz Grenadiers. My conclusion even with the defense the SS units took it hard where they could not recover, even by some surprise. I have read Dr. Coles work as well as several other Metz accounts and interviewed several US saervicemen the were engaged in this op. My observations concluded some 25 years ago that the W-SS even did not have time for the needed preparations so they thought, though let us look that the 17th SS was rather young seen action in Normandie and was a hard fought battle outfit and that is what secured the defensive manuevers the US had to face.

 

Von Poop,

By 1 December, the area in question had been in Allied hands for a week or more. By mid-December Seventh Army had liberated northeastern Lorraine and northern Alsace, and was closing on the West Wall. By the 19th VI Corps was heavily engaged in fighting within the wall itself.

As previously stated, Seventh Army's advance through the S. Vosges, and its breakout at Saverne caught the German defenses in the area ill-prepared and incomplete.

Duckbill

 

Erich,

Having read Cole and others, then you know the 17th SS PG was by no means the only German unit involved in the defense of Metz and the Orsholz Switch Line. As Cole points out, the cautiousness and hesitancy of Third Army, as well as its failure to engage in maneuver warfare to encircle and by-pass the stronger defenses at Metz certainly contributed to the ability of the German defenders to hold out longer than might have been the case otherwise.

Still, there can be no doubt that the Orsholz Switch and Metz line of defenses was much more heavily fortified than those encountered by Seventh Army during the final days leading up to the capture of Strasbourg.

Duckbill

 

Erich,

It took me a while to find it, but I located my copy of Dr. Christopher Gabel’s, The Lorraine Campaign: An Overview, September – December 1944. For some reason I thought it was a digital copy on my computer, but then I realized it was a hard copy on my bookshelf. Seems my memory is not what it once was. Oh well…..

Dr. Gable provides a general map of the fortifications around Metz, and has the following to say about them on page 31 of his essay. “Unlike the Maginot Line and Metz fortifications, the Westwall did not consist of gigantic underground fortresses and heavy artillery emplacements.”

Duckbill

 

For Metz, the best single volume is probably Anthony Kemp's The Unknown Battle: Metz 1944. I would also note that somewhere on this forum I posted up a detailed OOB for Metz a long time ago. Found a copy on one of the HD's on the computer:

Metz 1944 Order of Battle (German)



The Metz Fortifications:

Only the fortresses that were central to the fighting are listed. While many of the older Vauban and bastion type forts dating from the 1700’s and 1800’s were involved, their use was limited to local defenses and short lived. Those listed below are primarily German feste type fortresses built in the 1890’s.

The typical feste type fortification had 16 – 18cm thick cast iron turrets with a 4cm steel liner. These were fixed in battery positions, usually three turrets to a battery, in a common concrete pad. The mount for the turret was a steel apron with thicknesses similar to the turret itself. The aprons were set in the concrete pad, which was 6 to 10 feet thick. These forts also had several large blockhouse style barracks. These had 10 to 15 foot thick reinforced concrete roofs with 4 to 6 ft thick walls. They were partially buried under as much as 20 feet of compacted earth. Underground tunnels connected all of the structures. The fort also had deep wide trenches, some as much as 30 feet in both dimensions and were surrounded by a thick layer of barbed wire entanglements.



Driant:

2 batteries of 3 each 10cm guns, 2 batteries of 3 each 15cm guns. Attached to this fort is Batterie Moselle just east of the main fort with 2 10cm guns.



Jeanne d’Arc:

2 batteries of 3 each 10cm guns, 2 batteries of 3 each 15cm guns.



Fest Friedrich Karl:

Consists of forts Plappeville, St. Quentin (both bastion type forts from the 1870’s) and, Girardin (a polygonial type from the 1880’s). Upgraded with a battery of 15cm guns and a battery of 21cm guns.



Verdun group:

Consists of forts St. Blaise and Sommy. Each has 2 batteries of 3 each 10cm guns, 1 battery of 3 15cm guns.



Aisne:

1 battery of 3 10cm guns, 1 battery of 3 15cm guns.



Yesr:

2 batteries of 3 each 10cm guns, 2 batteries of 3 each 15cm guns.



Lorraine:

2 batteries of 3 each 10cm guns, 2 batteries of 3 each 15cm guns.



Of these, about 10% were initially made operational. Most of those were in forts Driant and Jeanne d’ Arc. By November the Germans had managed to get about 50% of the guns operational in most of the forts listed. These batteries were missing sights, range tables and, a lot of other equipment to make the guns fully operational and effective.



South of Metz the town of Thionville was also fortified. The fortifications there that played a role in 1944 were:



Königsmacker:

2 batteries of 3 each 10cm guns, 2 batteries of 3 each 15cm guns.



Marne group:

Consists of forts Jury, Mercy and, Ars-Laquenery. The last named had a battery of 6 10cm guns.



The September OOB:



The battle for Metz took place in two distinct segments: The first segment took place in September and was primarily an attack by the 90th US Infantry Division against Fort Driant. To the South of Metz some additional battles occurred between units of XIII SS Corps and the US as well.



Units involved directly in the defense of Metz in September:



462nd Division Number (Lt. Gen. Krause to 9/18. Relieved by GenMaj Lübbe)



Fahrenjunkerschule (Officer Candidate School) regiment. (Oberst v. Siegroth)

(3,300 men)



Unterführerschule (NCO Leadership School) regiment (Oberst Wagner)

(1,500 men)



1010 Landesschützen Regiment (Oberst Anton)

1 Fest MG abt.

1 Fest inf abt

(600 men)



Artillery: 2 batteries 7.62cm (r) guns, 1 battery 10.5 cm howitzers.



City garrison:

282nd Infantry Abt.

Abteilung “Berg” (SS signals school troops)



South of Metz the following units were deployed. These were engaged in a combination of offensive and defensive operations but not directly in defense of Metz.



19th VG Division (Obrest Britzelmayer)



59th, 73rd and, 74th VG Regiments

119th Artillery Regiment

119th PzJr Abt (11 Hetzers)

(approx. 9,000 men)



106th Panzer Brigade “Feldherrenhalle” (Oberst Bäke)



2106th Panzer Abt. (33 Panthers, 11 Stg III)

2106th Panzergrenadier Abt.

2106th Pioneer Kp.



NOVEMBER OOB



Following a localized counterattack by the 19th VG and 106th Panzer and the successful defense of Metz by the 462nd, and in particular the Fahrenjunkerschule Regiment, the 3rd US Army went into defense during October due to a shortage of supplies. The US resumed the offensive in early November.



LXXXII Corps (MajGen Johann Sinnhuber)



Corps troops:



1 Eisenbahn Artillerie Btry (1 x 28 cm railway gun)

485th Pzjr Abt (20 – 25 guns)

486th Pzjr Abt (20 – 25 guns)

1131 Fest. Art. Reg.

761st Art. Reg.

22nd Fest. Reg

45th Fest MG Abt

53rd Fest MG Abt

811th Fest Flak Abt (3 Batteries 88mm AA)

1519 Fest Art Abt

55th Fest Pio Abt.

1010 LdS Reg (Oberst Anton) (about 500 men)



462nd VG Division (MajGen Lübbe, relieved 14 Nov by LtGen Kittel)

(The 462nd Division Number was redesignated a VG division in late October)



1215 VG Reg (from Fahrenjunkerschule Reg) (Oberst Stössel)

1216 VG Reg (from Unterführerschule Reg) (Oberst Stolz)

1217 VG Reg (formed from local units) (Oberstlt Richter)

1462 Artillerie Reg (Oberst Palm)

2 batteries 7.62mm (r), 1 battery 10.5cm howitzers

1462 Pzjr Abt (Hpt Lautenschlager)

(10 anti-tank guns)

1462 Füsilier Abt (initially company) (Hpt Voss)

1462 Pioneer Abt (Hpt Hasselmann)

1462 Nach Abt. (Hpt Fremel)

Divisional services number is 1462



19th VG Division (GenMaj Britzelmayer)



59th, 73rd and, 74th VG Regiments

119th Artillery Regiment

(2 light battalions, 1 medium battalion)

119th PzJr Abt (11 Hetzers)

Divisional services number 119

(about 8,500 men)



416th VG Division (Genlt Pflieger)

(Locally this unit was widely known as the Schlagsahne Division or “Whipped Cream Division” due to its being manned mostly by unfit troops)

712th, 713th and 714th VG Regiments

416th Artillery Regiment

(equipped with Danish 7.5cm guns and 1 battalion of 12.2cm (r) Howitzers)

416th Pzjr Abt

Divisional services number 416

(about 8,500 men)



During the battle a KG from 25th Panzer Grenadier Division was made available for counterattacks. This consisted of:



PzGr Reg 35 + 10 AFV



XIII SS Corps (Genlt der SS Hermann Preiss)



Corps troops:



SS Flak Abt 513

SS Nach Abt 513

Corps services # 113

SS Reg. zbV “Matzdorff” (asorbed by 17th SS PzGr Div in early Nov)

92nd Luftwaffe Field Reg

48th Fest MG Abt (Verdun group garrison)

1431 Fest Abt

401st VolksArtillerie Korps

7th VolksWerfer Korps

243rd StG Brigade



17th SS Panzer Grenadier Division (Genmaj der SS Werner Ostendorff)



37th and 38th SS Pz Grenadier Regiments

17th SS Artillerie Reg.

(This unit has its complete assignment of towed artillery)

17th SS Pzjr Abt.

17th SS Panzer Abt. (4 Pz IV, 6 StG III)

17th SS Aüfks Abt (has an armored car company with Sdkfz 222 and 223 armored cars)



Division services number 17

(lists 15,843 men on 10/31)



553rd VG Division (Genmaj Hüter)

(Relieved by 48th VG Division early Nov)

1119th, 1120th and, 1121 VG Regiments

1553 Artillery Regiment

1553 Pzjr Kp.

1553 Füsilier Kp

Services number 1553



48th Infantry Division

(Relieved by 36th VG Division in mid Nov)

126th, 127th and, 128th Infantry Regiments

148th Artillery Regiment

48th Füs Kp.

148th Pzjr Abt.

Divisional services number 148



36th VG Division (Genmaj Wellm)

87th, 118th and, 165th VG Regiments

36th Artillery Regiment

Divisional services etc # 36

 

TA Gardner,

Thanks for the OOB and other information about the fortifications in and around Metz. A snappy salute has been awarded for your post.

And yet Patton might have avoided the long, drawn-out, and costly effort to take Metz had he let slip P. Wood and his 4th Armored Division following the encirclement of Nancy.

It makes me wonder what P. Wood might have accomplished with his armored division had he served under Seventh Army's Alexander Patch, and his boss, Jacob L. Devers.

Duckbill

 

The Metz area was going to be hard to avoid. It is one of the most heavily fortified areas in Europe. There were literally forts everywhere dating back to the Middle Ages. Taking any of the cities in the region could involve fighting on a fortified battlefield.

 

Exactly, and you do not attack the most heavily fortified point of a defensive line when other portions of the line offer better opportunities for quick penetration, and exploitation.

The initial attacks on the Orsholz Line by the 10th AD met with some success when CCB encountered a lightly defended segment of the line and penetrated to the its final defensive positions. There, for inexplicable reasons, CCB was allowed to stop. Had Patton pushed them forward, and added reinforcements, they would have rolled up the Orsholz Line, clearing the way to the Sarre River before the end of November. This would in turn place American forces along the West Wall in a area that was much less heavily fortified than the area around Metz which would undoubtedly prove more suseptible to maneuver warfare.

However, Patton inexplicably focused Third Army's main effort against the heavily fortified Metz, and the rest, as the saying goes, is history.

Duckbill

 

guys

Terry's OOB comes from a thread I started back in 03, Stevin O. was able to fill in gaps along with Terry with his OOB, at the time all I had was snippets until I got an overall picture of German defensive systems in the region. Kemps book was updated a few years later with a huge photo album and text of first hand interviews. Several German veterans within the fortress/city walls were very surprised that the US did not annihilate them with heavy bombs.