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German Insignia Identification

Discussion in 'Medals, Insignia, Badges & Recalls' started by Englander, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. Englander

    Englander Member

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    Hi there, guys
    My name is Alex and I am the grandson of a member of a british ww2 tank crew. My grandfather served from the 1942-45 period and was demobbed in 1946. He brought a number of items back with him, among them was a german badge, which i would very much like to have identified and, if possible, valued.
     

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  2. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hi Alex, I cant authenticate this without seeing the rear side. This is a Fahnentragers sleeve parch which means that he was the man of his particular Regiment who carried the regimental Flag. This is either for Signals or Cavalry. They go for about $500 USD Ive always wanted a few of these but never could afford them.

    Edit, i meant to say CANT instead of can--twas a typo.
     
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  3. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    I am sorry to disagree but I believe that the consensus on these is that they are fake. The readily accepted original version is machine-woven or otherwise known as 'BeVo' of Wuppertal. 'BeVo' shields are identical in every detail with exception of the waffenfarbe branch colour on the flag.
    [​IMG]
    The above applies only to the Heer designed fahnenträger shield, not to the other branches like the Luftwaffe and the Kreigsmarine....they have bullion woven shields.

    To date there has NEVER been a period photo of a bullion example being worn. There has NEVER been a tunic surfaced with a bullion patch that was accepted as original and there has NEVER been any documentation found that states that a bullion patch could be worn or even manufactured. All period photos of this particular patch that I have seen clearly show that the patch is 'BeVo'.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but my opinion is that this patch is 100% reproduction. A quick photo of the reverse would be nice so that the rest of the forum can see what the back of one of these looks like.

    On a side note...an original 'BeVo' example of this patch would be valued at around $1,000.00...not $500.00.

    Rich
     
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  4. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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  5. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    Nigel,

    These are all flat-wire or 'BeVo' examples...if it is differences in dimensions you are looking for look no further than the eagle's head on the OP's example...notice how 'rounded' the adler's head is on it...now look at the original flat-wire example.

    The overall craftsmanship of the OP's example is not of the high German quality that we are accustomed to seeing on such pieces...if you need an example go research an original Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine bullion standard bearer's patch.

    Rich
     
  6. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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  7. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    The bullion example that Gottlieb has would fetch around $4,000.00 - $5,000.00 in my opinion.
     
  8. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    There's got to be some fakes around with that sort of price tag. Incidentally, wouldn't the BeVo style be much easier to fake - for an item that becomes less likely to be seen as authentic if done in bullion, it seems like an odd choice for a faker. And the workmanship on Alex's one is not all that terrible?
     
  9. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    Nigel,

    I mean this with all due respect to you and everyone else here on this board but a piece like this is beyond most casual collectors. To date the biggest manufacturer of these is Rex Reddick...he sells 9 different styles of these in the 'BeVo' style...but the biggest giveaway is always the attention to detail and the rounded Adler head. If you have ever been fortunate enough to actually hold one of these and look at it, it becomes very easy to spot the fakes. Believe it or not this is an area that the fakers have really yet to perfect. That is the beauty of the bullion patch...even poorly done it will look superior to the casual collector...aged up with a spot of tea or dog urine to take away that bright shine and you have an expensive fake that cost little to manufacture. The detailing although good to the untrained eye is poor when compared to an original...whether it is a 'BeVo' example or a Luftwaffe bullion example...not even close.

    Here is Rex Reddick's site: Army Standard Bearer Shields | Reddick Militaria

    The bullion examples are straight out of Pakistan....

    Rich
     
  10. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    Good to know - thanks :)
     
  11. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    One thing about Reddick is they he usually makes his stuff with the purpose in mind that it is fake and so that people will know about it when buying. I know he does this when making repo SS Daggers and such.
     
  12. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    Rex doesn't hide the fact of what he does...it's the load and loads of small time dealers that buy from him and pass his stuff off as original...the lesser of two evils.

    That still does not change the fact that this piece is fake....I'll be curious if the OP comes back to defend his wares...

    Rich
     
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  13. Englander

    Englander Member

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    Hi again guys,
    This badge has been in my family since the end of the war and there is NO CHANCE that this badge is a reproduction - I am the first and only person in my family with an interest in this kind of thing and there is no-one else in my family that would have spent money on this kind of thing, repro or not. Sadly, my grandfather is no longer with us but the badge always remained with his other souvenirs (which included a german mothers award in silver, and a shoulder board belonging to a lieutennant in the artillery as well as some insignia from his own uniform)
    I simply cannot stress enough that this is no repro, it has been in a small packet of grandad's souvenirs for as long as anyone can remember.

    As requested i have attatched a picture of the rear of the badge.
     

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  14. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    I can appreciate your story...and I am not going to debate this thing until someone gets upset...but I have been around this hobby a long time and the information that I provided you is accurate. Is it possible that you have the one unknown variant example that has eluded collector's detection for 65 years...sure ...maybe...anything is possible...but judging by the poor quality of construction of the badge I am sticking with my stance that it is a fake. Look around the web for bullion and fake flat-wire examples of these and you will find the same characteristics...same rounded head on the adler, and all around poor construction.

    Whatever you decide to do with this piece is your business, but should you decide to sell it I believe that you will find it a difficult task...atleast among seasoned collector's.

    Rich
     
  15. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    I don't think he needs to defend anything. Its not like hes here trying to deceive anyone. He found an item among his grandfathers things and wanted to know more about it. He was not trying to sell it to anyone. So I'm not sure why he would have to defend it. Also he pretty much stated he knows nothing about it. So he could not defend it even if he had to.
     
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  16. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    "Defend" was the wrong choice of words perhaps. Call it on the account of me being old and jaded to TR collecting but if I had a dollar for every "My Grandfather brought this back" or "I'm looking for info and price" I have seen in my time I'd be a millionaire! People do use internet forums to gauge their work...do not think for one second that they do not. Do you think that Heer Floch doesn't parade around these places floating his new 'creations' around with a story much like the one that started this thread? Had the OP started out in the 'New Members' section and given everyone a brief bio and then proceeded to seek some opinions on his pieces I may not have been so harsh.

    In the end I base my judgements solely on the item...not the story... if someone comes on here seeking honest educated opinions then I will give mine...whether they like it or not is of no consequence to me.

    My apologies to the OP for being a bit harsh...but in the end...stories aside the piece that was posted is in my opinion not pre 1945 manufactured.

    Rich
     
  17. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Rich I value your opinion. I'd rather hear something I don't like than dream about treasures I don't have and get even more unhappy when I realize I got deceived.
    Other opinions are welcome here of course.
     
  18. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    I guess I'm just to trusting, Plus I know next to nothing about the world of Militaria. I had not even considered that the OP was being untruthful. I took him at his word.

    And sorry I dont know who Heer Floch is. My tiny militaria collection consists of only 3 items all American. Meaning I am the last person to ask about stuff like that.

    Also I'm not condemning you for telling him its a fake. You definitely did the right thing. It's nice to know that if I post a question about an item, that I'm gonna get an honest response form someone who knows what their talking about.
     
  19. RRCOLLECTOR

    RRCOLLECTOR Member

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    I hear you guys loud and clear...I am passionate...that leads to some flair up's unfortunately. I agree that there are two opinions and each and everyone has their own say...it's just that I grow tired of things like this. The OP may very well be 100% on the up and up...and his piece just may be that break through piece that can revolutionize standard bearer's patches...but I highly doubt it and based off of the hard facts that I have given it just doesn't seem to likely.

    It was not my intention to 'beat up' on the OP...it's just that I have seen this story time and time again and it is always the same song and dance.

    Third Reich militaria collecting is like a fine sausage...the end product looks, smells and tastes great...but if you ever knew how that 'sausage' was made you would run for the hills. I wish I could enjoy and look at militaria collecting like I did when I first started...I am jealous of some of you guys really...but the fact is probably HALF of the TR militaria out there is either fantasy or fake. It's a mine field fellas...do your research...do it some more and then go out and buy something...with your OWN knowledge...not some faceless dealers.

    Rich
     
  20. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    I have been looking at allot of the German stuff posted on here and some of it is really interesting. But I think I'm gonna keep my collecting to the US side for now.
     

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