German Normandy Campaign 'heroes'

A another useful source for the German view is Tiger Commanders of The LIebstandarte by PAtrick Agte. It has some useful German accounts that add weight to the events outlined in Villers-Bocage through the lense. I do not think we have seen the last of Villers-Bocage as my Uni supervisor is in the process of publishing his work on the battle...

 

you rely on British statistics Mkenny, went to elaborate as to why these should be trusted anymore than German sources???

 

I´m a bit puzzled as I think that it is common knowledge German losses were huge in the battles of the west( Falaise to begin with ). Was it mentioned somewhere here in the thread that German losses were small? I´ll have to print this thread as it's too long to read in one go.



But allied losses were quite huge at times like for operation Goodwood.

 

Quote:

"But allied losses were quite huge at times like for operation Goodwood."


Allied losses for Goodwood are often said to be 'huge' Whoever the figures often quoted are of ALL DAMAGED Allied tanks. A good number of these were repaired ans put back into service. However German losses NEVER include damaged and repaired tanks. The norm seems to be:
Allied tank hit=total loss
German tank hit=damaged tank, only a loss if scrapped later.

Do I trust Allied kill claims? no and I have never relied on them or quoted them-ever.
What I find strange is the total AND ABSOLUTE ACCEPTENCE of German claims.
What is the name of the author of this Villers work?

 

You cant dispute the losses at goodwood, even veterans i have spoke to talk of the appalling losses in armour.

"A good number of these were repaired ans put back into service."

Did they repair the killed crewman Mkenny?


"Patrick Delaforces book 'The Black Bull' has a passage about the destruction of 4 Panthers in Cheux (page 32) and mentions losses of only 15 Allied tanks"

"Stories of a 4:1 loss ratio are just not supported by the facts."

In these two quotes you have contradicted yourself Mkenny... 4 tanks for 15 is almost 4-1, its actually 3.8 to 1 but I aint gonna quibble... I still have not seen any utterance from you on your distasteful use of language over losses... I dislike the use of 'only 15 tanks'. As stated before its seems to lessen the suffering caused. I for one do not wish to make war a meaningless statistic.


"Do I trust Allied kill claims? no and I have never relied on them or quoted them-ever."

If you dont use allied sources, what sources do you use??? What Primary sources do you use for the basis of your research? Which Archives do you visit to collect this infomation?


I dont think anyone mentioned that German sources were trusted implicitly, but surely as a Historian you have to take them into account. By your language you seem to have a heavy bias against all things German. Your reply to Framert question on tank verification claims reflected this.

Surely any historian is faced with the difficult task of sifting through masses of research in order to discern the truth from a collection of PRIMARY sources. This should be done with as little bias as possible.

I shall attempt to get this topic back on topic now...

 

OK lets turn this on its head.
I have often read stories about huge Allied tank losses for Operation Goodwood. Can anyone give me "a collection of PRIMARY sources" that gives figures for these losses? This does not include stories in German Unit Histories or anectdotal evidence from veterans.

 

Would war office documents suit you?

Or you could try delaforces book that you were happy to quote earlier...

 

I'm probably trespasing here, but ; -

Ellis 'Victory In The West' Vol 1 gives for the first day of 'Goodwood' -

'Casualties of 1, VIII and II Canadian Corps were approximately 1,500 of all ranks and some 200 tanks' ( p.345 citing HQ Second Army War Diary July 1944 Appendix G ).

 

More than welcome Martin, writing my letter to the Times, will post it when done!

 

Quote:

"Would war office documents suit you?"

Would love them. Please post any info you have. I really would like to see it. I have been searching for years to find just such information IN A USABLE FORM but have never been able to find it.

Books I am looking for are:

'Survey Of Allied Tank Casualties In WWII' Coox and Naiswald, John Hopkins University 1951.

'Analysis Of Firepower In Normandy Operations Of 1944' Bourne and Shackleton, NDHQ Report Ottowa

They would answer a lot of questions and at the moment I think the best book on tank tactics in Normandy is:

'Tank Tactics, From Normandy To Lorraine' Roman Johann Jarrymowycz. Lynne Riennes pub 2001

Interestingly the last book has tables showing that none enemy losses for the UK in 1944 was 2%.
For Canada it was 22% and the USA it was 14%

I ask about your Villers author because I know someone doing such a work and have seen it. What are his initials?

 

Mkenny - JB...

Be bizarre if we both know the same guy!

Am trying to find the report on Goodwood that I have... However I do have to admit it is vague over losses...

That list of books is goin on my Xmas list! I know a guy who deals in old out of print military books, will see if he has any of them... or can get hold of them!

 

I aint seen his villers work... though I did lend him some books!!!

 

Those figures of 2%, 14% and 22%... I am not disagreeing but I wonder what the authors sources were? Seems a strange jump from 2 - 14? Would British tank crews have been that much better/luckier? I wonder if the US losses are due to the BOcage terrain and the ease with which they could be ambushed by German infantry?

Interesting to see the Brits are the lowest after the slaggin they usually get...

 

One other thought occurs... Would unit diaries have a list of losses?

 

Some War Diaries sometimes have casualty figures but its hit or miss.

For the Allied tank casualties in Western Europe 1944 the sample for the UK was 1048 tanks. Of this 621 (59.2%) were lost to gunfire and 21(2%)to non enemy loss. Thus a large number (40%) would be mined and other non sexy losses.

In Italy 1944 the sample was 652. Of this 59.3% lost to gunfire and 3.5% to non enemy loss.

The source is given as ORO-T-117 Tables I and II. 'Sampling Of Allied Tank Casualties To All Causes'.

 

And my 'author' is a Julian S.

 

It definitely seems to me that summer 1944 was one huge battle with awful losses to both sides. I think the fact the allied did not get anywhere from Normandy by late July should prove that. And three big campaigns by Monty, Epsom,Bluecoat and Goodwood, and what happened?

OK, m kenny. What were your figures for Goodwood losses really?

Here´s the Goodwood as discussed earlier but if one cannot think the allied might have lost quite alot of tanks don´t bother!

 

Different authors... Mine is writing a history of the British armour in the Normandy campaign.

The sources I have for Goodwood all point to losses around the 200+ mark...

 

Found 'A war Study - Operation Goodwood' by the MOD... Gonna have a look, includes a film on the Operation.


See Decision in Normandy and Struggle for Europe. Wilmot lists the 11th as sustaining 121 lost vehicles of which only 41 could not be repaired or recovered. Going through these and Caen - Anvil of Victory.

 

Quote:

"121 lost vehicles of which only 41 could not be repaired or recovered."

Now if you were recording losses the German way that would be 41 losses not 121. Never have I seen the German tanks hit and sent for repair (or even recovered) counted as losses.
The true total os losses for Goodwood can not be worked out because the figures were not kept in any form of order. However I keep reading about 200 to 400 tanks destroyed and nothing to back it up. The trick is not to include hit/recovered/repaired Allied tanks in the loss table.