GLIDERS?STUPID QUESTION?

Good info in your post. Enjoyed it.

 

Adding to Ilhawk's interesting comments.

Many of the British airborne troops were drafted in as the British decided to raise two airborne divisions. The parachute battalions for 6 Airborne division 7,8,9, 12 and 13 para were converted from infantry battalions, with an element of dual identify - 13 (Lancashire) and 12 (Yorkshire). The glider borne troops remained as battalions of their original corps. The British air landing brigades had a lot more men in their establishment and more heavy weapons than the lightly armed parachute battalions. The anti tank defences were based on the air landed 6 pdr and 17 pdr guns.

An airborne role required soldiers to be fit enough to march to where they needed to be after landing somewhere else. There was considerable fitness training and the less fit were weeded out.

I can't find any evidence that the airborne artillery were treated in this way. 53 Airlanding Regiment in 6 AB Division had been the divisional anti tank regiment for 42 Armoured Division prior that division' disbandment and then used to operate amphibious trials equipment. The unit was converted only six months before D Day and I suspect it was more important to train these anti tank gunners to become field artillerymen and learn how to landing artillery in gliders. There is nothing in the war diary or regimental history to suggest that the unit was purged of its least fit members. The British airborne effort was supported by extra airborne artillery observers and forward observation bombardment parties which landed either by parachute or by glider. I am not sure to what extent these men went through an arduous P Company either.


One distinct difference between US and British practice was that the British glider pilots were expected to have a defined ground role. I met a D Day veteran glider pilot whose duty once landed was to joining an anti tank gun detachment. I think the US policy was to extract the expensively trained glider pilots as soon as possible. At the end of 1944 surplus RAF pilots were drafter into the Glider Pilot Regiment. Jack Currie, author of Lancaster Target and Mosquito Victory, had completed a tour in Bomber Command was lured into applying for a transfer to Transport Command. Instead of flying tugs or transport aircraft he found himself in khaki and practising platoon tactics. He escaped into a Met Recce flight, but some of the glider pilots on the Rhine crossing were ex bomber and fighter pilots.

 

The 327 guys pre Normandy did some training in Horsa's. The guys described them as flying bathtubs being pulled through the air. They would roll back and forth and the soldiers got more airsick from the motion. The Horsa's were quite a bit bigger than a WACO.

 

It was absolutely hoped and intended that the gliders would be used again. Some of the lighter gliders incorporated what was known as a snatch to retrieve a glider and often cargo from the ground.

 

Glad to have you here, you have a lot of good information. I knew our glidermen were unenthusiastic about the Horsa after using some of them in Normandy and insisted on all Wacos for Market-Garden, but had not known the reason, thanks. Maybe you can shed some light on something I've wondered about M-G and glider units in general. From what I've read, it took about 80 Wacos to land a glider infantry battalion or about 260 for a regiment. Parachute infantry in M-G used 117 C-47s and 12 gliders per regiment. I understand a C-47 could carry a few more troops than a Waco, but that would not seem to explain the whole difference. Did the glider units have more troops or equipment that necessitated so many aircraft? Thanks.

 

I remember reading somewhere that a casket manufacturer made gliders too. Not sure of their quality, but I'd have second thoughts about getting into one.

 

I believe you are right. Small mention of it on this website.

http://www.pointvista.com/WW2GliderPilots/Dedication.htm

 

At least you wouldn't be serving under Colonel Richard Geoffrey Pine-Coffin; he was a paratrooper, commanding 7th Para Battalion.

 

I'm not a weapons expert. However, the glidermen, though stil a light infantry, were more heavily armed than paratroopers. So many mistakenly believe the Paras were better units, but in reality the glider guys were more heavily armed. The paras were to land and secure areas for further landings (which would be gliders). The 327 had 3 Battalions. The paras had 2. For informational purposes, the 401 GIR was split in two with 1 BN (ABC) going to the 327 of the 101 and 2nd BN (EFG) going to the 325 82nd. They were attached as 3rd BN which became official in March 45 when 401 ABC became IJK of the 327. Hundreds of 401 2nd BN graves are incorrectly marked as 101st when they fought for the 82nd.

The training for paras and glider troops outside of jump training wouldn't have been much different, except for heavier weapons. Interesting note, the glider guys in general were older than paratroopers. Average age was mid upper 20s with some pushing 40. There were young guys though in glider units.

 

The De Havilland Mosquito was made of wood. Their subcontractors included many of the UK';s furniture makers and the the Co-operative society, best known as a funeral director. I donlt think the Mosquito was ever regarded as a flying coffin.

 

I knew that the Mosquito was made of wood, but thank you for your input. I've always admired the Mosquito and ranked it with the Spitfire as my favorite RAF aircraft since seeing "633 Squadron" when I was a kid. I never considered the Mosquito to be a death trap at all. I was referring the the gliders that were manufactured by casket companies and the creepy feeling about them. The gliders were deathtra

 

Continued:

The gliders were death traps enough as they were.

 

Hey....weren't you GIR? and I am not messing with you either. Seems like there was still a regiment with the 80 deuce that claimed GIR

 

The 1943 crash in St Louis at Lambert scared a lot of people. Most gliders were made by a Ford division and aircraft manufacturers.

 

Yep, I was in the 325 while in the 82nd Airplane Gang. Back in WW2, the 325 was a Glider Infantry Regiment (GIR). Sometime after the war in 1947 or 48 I think, the US Army finally got rid of the gliders and converted the GIRs to regular parachute infantry regiments, but stopped at designating them full fledged PIRs (parachute infantry regiments). They were just called 325th Infantry, 327th Infantry, 187th Infantry etc. Sometime later when the Army went back to the regimental system, the 325 was designated as the "325th Airborne Infantry Regiment" while the 504,505, and 508 were re-designated as PIRs. From what I've heard from old buddies who recently retired, the "Airborne" designation promotes more than a few alcohol induced fights between the 325 and the other PIRs. As if they need another reason to fight at Fort Bragg on a Saturday night.

I've always been of the opinion to give the 325 the GIR designation back to them to keep the historical connection connected. They still have the 1st Cavalry Division, and they don't ride horses. The 10th Mountain Division doesn't climb mountains anymore and the 101st Airborne Division doesn't jump out of airplanes anymore either. So why can't the 325 be a GIR even though nobody uses gliders anymore? Obviously I missed the phone call when the decision was made to assign the "Airborne Infantry Regiment" to the 325, and my input was not taken into consideration. Goddam Army.

 

The major differences between the GIR and PIR was in the heavy weapons, but organizationally they were also different. In the PIR, antitank capability was restricted to the 2.35" Rocket Launcher (Bazooka), while the GIR had 8 antitank guns (initially 37mm then 57mm) in two platoons in the Regimental HQ & HQ Company. In the PIR there were four 81mm mortars with each battalion, but six per battalion in the GIR...except the GIR only had two battalions as organized, while the PIR had three, so each regiment had a total of 12. OTOH, each battalion in the GIR had 12 60mm mortars for 24 in the regiment, but in the PIR each battalion had nine, for 27 in the regiment. Officially, Parachute battalions did not use the BAR in its Rifle squads, but was instead supposed to have M1919A6 machine guns (44 per battalion), but they were not widely available until MARKET, so usually the M1919A5 was substituted. The GIR used the M191A5 as its LMG (6 per battalion) and the BAR (18 per battalion). The PIR also did not utilize the M1917A2 .30 caliber Browning "heavy" machine gun, while the GIR did (four per battalion).

The other major peculiarity was both the Parachute and Glider battalion consisted of a HQ&HQ Company and three Rifle companies, but the Parachute Company consisted of three identical platoons comprised of two Rifle and one Weapons squad, while the Glider Company consisted of two Rifle Platoons and a Weapons Platoon.

The 3d Battalion, 327th GIR was actually the 1st Battalion, 401st GIR. The 3d Battalion, 325th GIR was actually the 2d Battalion, 401st GIR. The 401st GIR was split and attached to the 82d and 101st Airborne divisions for NEPTUNE. Similarly, in the 17th Airborne Division, the 550th Glider Infantry Battalion (Separate) was attached to the division and acted as a 3d Battalion as needed for both the 193d and 194th GIR during the Battle of the Bulge. Then on 1 March 1945 the remnants of the 193d and 550th were re-organized as the 3d Battalion, 194th GIR. The divisional changes became permanent in mid-December 1944 when new tentative TO&E's were issued to reflect the actual changes made to the 82d and 101st organization, which were based on combat experience. The third battalion in the GIR was made permanent, the Glider company organized a third Rifle platoon, and so forth.

A different pattern followed in the Pacific, where the three regiments of the 11th Airborne Division (511th PIR, 187th GIR, and 188th GIR) were intermixed as "Para-Glider" regiments.

The last Glider Infantry were deactivated in December 1947 and the Glider School was deactivated in early 1948, but glider training continued for some time (in 1949 my Dad, then a Battery Officer in a 12mm AAA Gun battalion in Japan, was sent to a Glider loading course). Concurrently, all Glider and Parachute infantry units not deactivated were redeisgnated as Airborne Infantry.

Cheers!

Rich Anderson

 

The 401 1st BN became attached to the 327 officially for the final thrust on Carentan. They fought alongside the paratroopers and then held the east flank until then. The attachment continued until March 45 when they officially became the 3rd BN 327 and Co's AB and C became (I'd have to look) IJK with another for heavy weapons.

With all the confusion there are something like 100 - 401 end 2 BN soldiers KIA that are buried with 101st tombstones when they were 82nd (325). The military refuses to correct this.

The 401 1 BN with Co G (2nd BN 327 attached) was the actual main assault unit on Carentan, with Co G doing a lot of the leg work.

The Calvary implies mobile unit and has old ties. Nothing about the 327 resembled gliders any longer. In WW1 they were just...327.

Btw, thx Rich...I've never been a weapons expert much.

 

Missed this one earlier.

I reckon he got ribbed a lot over that moniker, especially if he was assigned to a Graves Registration unit.

So, what's the deal with the hyphenated names in Britain anyway? Seems to be a lot of them.

 

Hi All, I recently published a book (www.511pir.com) on the 11th Airborne Division in World War II with an emphasis on the 511th Parachute Infantry Regiment in which my grandfather served, D Company. If anyone has questions regarding the division or their family members who served in it during the war, I would be honored to help. Just send me an email at coachholm@live.com and I'll do what I can