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GLORY OF DISHONOUR

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by Arhivist_Kharkov, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Arhivist_Kharkov

    Arhivist_Kharkov New Member

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    In May-June 1946 in the German city of Dachau, a trial was held of former SS officers accused of shooting prisoners of war on the Western Front in 1944 near the town of Malmedy. It was about the number of dead numbered no more than 120 people. Despite the fact that the Western allies have evidence of the killing of civilians in the USSR, only the Malmedy incident was considered. In 1956, the last accused were released from the prison, including Joachim Piper, who together with his friend Kurt Meier carried out a number of mass killings of civilians, recruits and prisoners of war in Kharkiv region. About crimes in the territory of the Kharkiv region in February-March 1943, committed by soldiers and officers of the SS division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" see the film "GLORY OF DISHONOUR" soon

     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I'd love to hear of the trials of the Soviet officers and soldiers that killed the Polish troops at Katyn.
     
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  3. Arhivist_Kharkov

    Arhivist_Kharkov New Member

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    [QUOTE = "Takao, post: 835142, участник: 15523"] Мне бы хотелось услышать о судах советских офицеров и солдат, убивших польские войска в Катыни. [/QUOTE]
    I do not mind, but I study military history on the territory of the Kharkiv region. And the theme of the execution of Polish officers in our land is quite well disclosed.
     
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  4. WILD DUKW

    WILD DUKW Active Member

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  5. Buten42

    Buten42 Member Patron  

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    I've also heard and read about many barbaric acts committed by the USSR troops to the German and Polish civilians. Neither side innocent.
     
  6. Arhivist_Kharkov

    Arhivist_Kharkov New Member

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    Yes, of course, and therefore the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of civilians burned in Ukrainian villages should simply forget about the loss of their loved ones and think about the retribution that the Red Army soldiers committed in Germany? Moreover, this is not a study about all the victims of the Second World War, but only a special case in a certain period of time.
     
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  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    His actions in the East were likely not considered as under the jurisdiction of the Western powers and they likely didn't have the resources to put together a good case against him for them in any case. The Soviets should probably have requested his extradition for trial. It would probably have been granted at that time and I suspect he would not have walked free after a decade or two.

    *** edit for ***
    It's also worth noting that he got a death sentence originally. They should have considered some of his other crimes when commuting that but we were into the cold war then.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    AFAIK, the decision was made early on to only pursue allegations in their jurisdictions, due too the many claims and lack of manpower to investigate all of the claims. Extradition policies were made up and enforced, so that all nations could prosecute those seen to have conducted war crimes.

    Also, AFAIK, the Soviet Union never asked for extradition of either Peiper or Meyer. Further, all the Western Allies had on their war crimes in the East were allegations...No hard evidence or proof. Finally, most of the allegations that were looked into, proved to be false claims made by other German soldiers looking to get into the "good graces" of the victorious allies.

    The allegations and proof against Peiper and Meyer are covered in detail over on the Axis History Forum:
    Peiper: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=206251&hilit=peiper,+war+crimes,+russia
    Meyer: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=142224&hilit=meyer,+war+crimes
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You BB!
    Every single day of the WW2 Nazis murdered an equivalent of the "Katyn" in the USSR. Civilians! In the most barbaric fashion and you still insist on that minor accident. Even if Katyn has happened it was just a minor episode compared to what really happened to civilian population of the USSR. Just STFU.
    Katyn is a joke compared to what happened to the "subjects" of the British Empire during the World War 2. Milions were starved to death in India and Pakistan to provide food for Britain.
    Firts things first.
     
  10. Arhivist_Kharkov

    Arhivist_Kharkov New Member

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    [QUOTE = "Тамино, должность: 837439, участник: 22837"] Вы BB!
    Каждый день Второй мировой войны нацисты убивали эквивалент «Катыни» в СССР. Гражданское население! Наиболее варварским способом, и вы все еще настаиваете на этой незначительной аварии. Даже если случилась Катынь, это был лишь незначительный эпизод по сравнению с тем, что действительно произошло с гражданским населением СССР. Просто СТФУ.
    Катынь - это шутка по сравнению с тем, что произошло с «подданными» Британской империи во время Второй мировой войны. Милионы умерли от голода в Индии и Пакистане, чтобы обеспечить пищу для Великобритании.
    Сначала дела. [/ QUOTE]
    Я повторяю вам снова! Я занимаюсь историей Слободской Украины, Харьковской губернии, Харьковской области, а не всей историей Второй мировой войны. Я знаю о Катыни, мы также снимали польских офицеров, и об этих эпизодах писали статьи, книги и снимали фильмы других исследователей. В частности, историк Александр Зинченко. Поэтому нет необходимости убеждать меня, что я не принимаю это во внимание. Это разные эпизоды Второй мировой войны.
     
  11. Arhivist_Kharkov

    Arhivist_Kharkov New Member

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    I repeat to you again! I am engaged in the history of Sloboda Ukraine, Kharkiv province, Kharkiv region, and not the whole history of the Second World War. I know about Katyn, we also shot Polish officers, and about these episodes written articles, books and making films by other researchers. In particular, the historian Alexander Zinchenko. Therefore, it is not necessary to convince me that I do not take this into account. These are different episodes of the Second World War.
     
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  12. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    @Archivist_Kharkov
    You are at the wrong place here if you are looking for compassionate, honest people who want to know the truth. Here, you can meet just the most inveterate advocates of crimes committed at the east. Even at the Axis Forums you may find friends ready to listen. Not here, anymore. Honest people have departed long time ago.
     
  13. Arhivist_Kharkov

    Arhivist_Kharkov New Member

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    I believe in humanity! I believe in professionalism! If I don't need it here, let the administrators remove me.
     
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  14. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    That region suffered the most. People were deprived from food, from everything they had, from human dignity, from the right to exist. That region was a heavy duty Bloodland. And yet there are individuals who would jump and scream "Katyn!!!!!!"
    Katyn has nothing to do with atrocities committed at the the southern wing of the Axis attack. That was a vicious, racist mass murder.
    Yet I don't understand why the Nazis and the present day Neo-Nazis consider Slavic population as "inferrior"?
    LWD and Takao should once visit the south-west of the former Soviet union to see the real sound genetic foundation.
     
  15. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You're a kind man. My respect to your humility.
     
  16. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    To others who want to scream "Katyn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!":

    Of the 41.7 million people living in Ukrainian Soviet Republic before the war, only 27.4 million were alive in Ukraine in 1945.

    Think and show some respect if you still can. Otherwise, just remain silent.
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    Sorry, Takao, but that seems a slightly bizarre response,
    Chap & video covers well-known Nazis & their crimes in the East.
    Are we not to consider it until he apologises for every Soviet atrocity?
    Should we not hear any German's opinion on Stalingrad, or Crete, until they list every murder carried out?
    If a Japanese expert on their Navy gave us chapter & verse on some ship or other, should that not be allowed until they carefully outline all the actions of the Kempeitai?

    Bit weird.
    I don't see that this bloke has to somehow apologise. (Unless you know more of the background? )

    (And, Tamino, you've replied multiple times while I write this reply. If everyone worth talking to has fled, why bother hanging around... (rhetorical facetious question... no need for reply. Be nice to hear more of Peiper in the East over more accusations, direct or indirect. ;) ))


    Watched the video.
    Fairly plain list of atrocity, presumably trailing the main documentary, but nobody on it's claiming innocence on the behalf of anyone at all except those murdered.
    There were of course jurisdictional, legal, political etc. reasons the Western war-crime tribunals stayed in certain territory. but it seems reasonable to me to consider Peiper & Co.'s actions in the East more, as there's truth to the fact his grubby history there isn't so well-covered.

    Who's making the film?
    Can't find any reference to it really.
     
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  18. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    The better question is why the Soviet Union chose not to pursue indictments of Peiper after he was apprehended and tried in the American Zone? It's not as if he could have gotten away or any statute of limitations were involved.

    So what trials were there?

    Perhaps the best known was the IMT at Nuremberg, which involved 22 high ranking Nazis. They were tried by an international court of the Allied Powers.

    With the precedent set by the IMT, the U.S. subsequently tried 183 more Nazi civilian and military defendants in 12 separate trials, between 1947-1949. The "Malmedy Trial" was part of the Dachau Trials, which were U.S. Military Court trials of defendants, like Peiper, captured in the U.S. Zone of Occupation. There were 489 separate trials of 1,672 alleged criminals by the U.S. Military Tribunals.

    The British also conducted trials of alleged criminals captured in the British Zone of Occupation, but only those accused of crimes against British subjects and against Allied citizens in the British Zone, as did the French in the French Zone and territories.

    Altogether, some 5,000 alleged criminals caught in their jurisdiction were tried by the Americans, British, and French. Another 5,450 were tried by the Poles, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria conducted an unknown number of trials, while14,562, mostly Dutch citizens, were convicted in the Netherlands. Norway, Belgium, and Italy also conducted trials. Most of those cases included Germans, Austrians, ethnic Germans, and collaborationist citizens. The Soviets convicted some 34,000 German soldiers and 618,000 of its own citizens.

    In any of those cases, any of the other Allied Powers could have levied charges against the alleged criminals as well, but rarely did. One example where they did though, is Amon Goeth, who was captured in the American Zone and held at Dachau, identified as a camp commandant of Kraków-Płaszów, but was not tried, since that camp was not in the American Zone. Instead, he was extradited to Poland where he was tried, convicted, and hanged.

    So why not Peiper?
     
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  19. WILD DUKW

    WILD DUKW Active Member

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    I for one would like to learn more about your research and findings.
     
  20. WILD DUKW

    WILD DUKW Active Member

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    You do not speak for me. See my post #19 above.
     

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