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Goodwood - PaK 40, Artillerie-Pak-Abteilung 1053

Discussion in 'Western Europe 1943 - 1945' started by Cyberbachi, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. Cyberbachi

    Cyberbachi New Member

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    Hello

    Goodwood topics are often the Cagny 8.8's, LW's Flak or the 21 Pz's PaK 43 (Cagny, Hubert Folie). We hardly ever talk about 7.5 cm PaK 40.

    Does anyone know which unit used these AT guns?
    I suppose there were some in 21. Panzer-Division (3./Stab/PzGrRgt.125 ? Not in PzJäg Abt. 200), 16. LW ID and Abteilung 1053.
    There is no mention of action of the Abteillung 1053 in books... juste some words.
    I have the book of Ian Daglish (a real historian's work !!!), but it does not tell me the role of this unit, or other PaK 40's units mentioned above.

    I understand that some parts of the 1053 were entrenched behind Cagny or near the Bois de Bavent with 346. ID. Am I right or not?
    As for other PaK 40, where have they been used?

    To consult different books and different websites, I understand that apart from the 88 (FlaK & PaK 43) and Becker's StuG, there were probably PaK 40 in action on 18/07 in Grentheville (21 Pz or Abt 1053?), at Cagny (Abt 1053?), Emieville (16 LW or 21 Pz or Abt 1053?), Cuverville (16 LW?) , Moondeville (272. ID ?)...

    The often very precise historiography of this battle generally lingers on the 88 and the Tiger II, but not enough for the rest. The oral testimonies of the British survivors often mention "anti tank guns" but include the StuG, 88 and other PaK (88 or not).

    Does somebody have an idea ?

    Thank you

    PS sorry, I m not a native english speaker
     
  2. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry Cyber, I'm slightly confused as to what you are asking? Are you looking for German units that used the Pak 40's in the battles you listed, or are you asking if they were used in those battles?
     
  3. Cyberbachi

    Cyberbachi New Member

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    I'm asking where PaK 40 have been used during Goodwood.
    And, possibly by which unit ? 1053 and where ? 21 Pz and where ? 16 LW and where ? 272 ID and where ?

    Even in this great and fascinating topic there is nothing about PaK 40.
     
  4. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    Oh okay, my apologies, I didn't understand initially, I have book on Artillery and AT guns in WW2, I'll look for the pak 40 and see if I find anything.
     
  5. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    I understand your problem. Many WW2 writers and even learned historians tend to overemphasize the Tiger tank and the 88's to the point every cannon becomes an 88 and every tank a Tiger. It may take an actual unit report, assuming one can be found to give use distribution reports to units using PAK 40's. There are some very knowledgeable people here and on our sister forum WW2Talk in the UK that may be able to help you. I hope someone answers your request. ..

    Gaines
     
  6. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Well, from northeast to southwest the German deployment was:

    Panzergruppe West with:

    LXXXVI. A.K.
    346. Inf.-Div. had 1./Pz.Jg.-Abtl. 346 with 14 7.5cm s.Pak at the beginning of the campaign. It is unknown how many they had on 18 July.
    16. Feld-Div. (LW) had 14. (Pz.Jg.)/Jg.-Regt. (LW) 31. with six 7.5cm s.Pak and 1./Pz.Jg.-Abtl. (LW) 16 with six to nine 7.5cm s.Pak at the beginning of the campaign. It is unknown how many they had on 18 July.
    21. Pz.-Div. had many 7.5cm s.Pak at the beginning of the campaign, but all were Sfl. (self-propelled).
    Pz.Jg.-Abtl. 1039. and 1053. were both attached to LXXXVI. A.K. and in support of its two infantry divisions. The three batteries of 1039. were each originally armed with nine 8.8cm s.Pak 43/41. The three batteries of 1053. were each originally armed with nine 7.5cm s.Pak 40.

    So the upper limit for the number of 7.5cm s.Pak 40 on 18 July in the zone of LXXXVI. A.K. is 56.
     
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  7. Cyberbachi

    Cyberbachi New Member

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    Thank you RichTO90.
    I think 1053 was spread all over the front :
    - In support of 346. ID --> Perhaps in Bois de Bavent
    - In support of 16. Feld-Div. (LW) --> Perhaps in Colombelles and/or Cuverville and/or Touffreville and/or Sannerville and/or Emieville ???
    - In support of 21. Pz.-Div. --> Grentheville ? Mesnil Frémentel ? Bras ? Hunert Folie ? Soliers ? Cagny ???????

    The mos important is your conclusion : only 56 PaK 40......
     
  8. harolds

    harolds Member

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    The PAK 40 was the standard AT gun of the German infantry divs. Therefore, all regular infantry divisions should have had them. They also were used by the panzer grenadier regiments. Therefore, it might be easier to list the units that did NOT have these guns. I don't believe the Fallschirmjagers had them.
     
  9. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Um, I did just list them. The ones that actually had them that is in the area in question. I did not include those in 711. Inf.-Div. since it was not engaged or in those of I. and II. SS-Panzerkorps because the OP was not interested in those sectors. Nor did I give those in 7. Armee for the same reason.
     
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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  11. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Then there is the concept of "used". I suspect a large number of these guns were taken out by the intense air and artillery prep. and thus weren't "used" because they were destroyed. 16LW (already decimated) was pretty much wiped out by these bombardments. To survive, the guns would have had to had a lot of luck.
     
  12. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Um, no, only 56 7.5cm s.Pak 40 (mot). The Sfl. were a significant presence in 21. Panzerdivision.

    I.(gep.)/Pz.-Gren.-Regt. 125 had four
    II./Pz.-Gren.-Regt. 125 had three
    I.(gep.)/Pz.-Gren.-Regt. 192 had four
    II./Pz.-Gren.-Regt. 192 had three

    So another 14. :)
     
  13. Cyberbachi

    Cyberbachi New Member

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    Ok, maybe lot of PaK 40 have been destroyed by RAF bombing...
    Bu I still dont konow there have been entrenched.

    Grentheville ? And other towns north and west of Cagny ?
     
  14. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    What about the 1st SS? They were the opposition to 3 RTR at Hubert -Folie
     
  15. machine shop tom

    machine shop tom Member

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    Here's a working survivor.

     
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