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Great Britain makes peace with Hitler in 1940

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by British-Empire, Mar 2, 2008.

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  1. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Halifax came within a whisker of becoming Prime Minister in May 1940; the job was his to refuse. The Tory Party, and the King both wanted him his place in House Lords was a barrier that could be removed.

    This scenario describes in my opinion what would have happened if Lord Halifax had accepted the post.

    May 1940 -

    Lord Halifax becomes Prime Minister.
    Germany invades France.

    June 1940 -

    France and Britain declare an armistice with Germany.
    Italy who is eyeing Britain’s colonies all so reluctantly agrees.

    July 1940 -

    Soviets take Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

    Oct 1940 -

    Italy invades Greece and Yugoslavia.

    April 1941 -

    Germans invade Greece and Yugoslavia to aid their Italian allies.

    June 1941 -

    The Axis powers attack the USSR.

    Oct 1941 -

    Axis push towards Moscow begins.

    Nov 1941 -

    Axis forces surround Moscow.
    Battle of Moscow begins.

    Dec 1941 -

    Soviet counter offensive begins pushing the Axis back to the North and South of Moscow and breaking the Axis ring of steel.
    The Axis forces however manage to keep the path to Moscow open.

    To be continued -
     
  2. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Dec 1941 -

    Japan attacks Pearl Harbor.
    Axis powers declare war on the
    USA.
    Japanese invade the Philippines.

    Jan 1942 -

    Japanese invade the
    Dutch East Indies.
    Philippines taken by the Japanese.
    The German and Italian U-Boats take a heavy toll on US merchant shipping.
    The German and Italian Fleets head into the Atlantic but stays clear of the
    US coast with the exception of the U-boats.

    March 1942 -

    Dutch East Indies completely taken.
    Axis forces hold against further Soviet counter attacks.

    A wrecked Moscow still is mostly in Axis hands.

    May 1942 -

    German summer offensive begins in the
    Ukraine and Crimea
    Japanese win the Battle of Midway destroying the
    US carriers and taking the Midway atoll.

    June 1942 -

    Germans begin a drive toward
    Stalingrad in the USSR.
    Japanese capture
    American Samoa.

    August 1942 -

    Japanese attack and capture
    Hawaii.
    Japanese ask the Americans for peace terms but they are refused.

    Sept 1942 -

    Turkey invades the Caucasus assisted by Axis troops.
    Iraq joins the Axis.
    VichyFrance declares war on the USSR.
    VichyFrance given Waloonia (Southern Belgium) by Germany.
    Flanders merged with Holland to create the Greater Netherlands.
    Germans reach the
    Caspian Sea cutting off the Caucasus region.

    Oct 1942 -

    Germans reach the
    VolgaRiver.
    The Greater Netherlands declare war on the
    USSR.
    Germans, French and Italians occupy
    Switzerland sharing it between them.
    Japanese invade
    Alaska and capture anchorage.
    Dutch and French fleets enter the
    Atlantic.
    Pressure on
    Spain and Portugal to enter the war.
    Soviets invade Persia.
    Persia joins the Axis

    Nov 1942 -

    West Banks or the
    Volga and most of the Don Rivers now in Axis hands.
    Stalingrad completely captured by Axis forces.
    Soviet counter offensive begins.
    Spain enters the war on the Axis side.
    Most of Persia in Soviet hands before Axis forces halt them in North West Persia.

    Dec 1942 -

    Fronts on the
    Volga and at Stalingrad hold.
    Portugal enters the war on the Axis side.
    European Axis Fleets and Aircraft quickly make use of Portuguese and
    SpanishAtlanticIslands.

    Fed 1943 -

    Soviets break across the Don and push South West

    March 1943 -

    Soviet advance stopped in the
    Ukraine and reversed.

    June 1943 -

    Huge Axis attack launched north from the
    Caucasus along the West Bank of the River Don.
    Second offensive pushes into Persia.
    SovietSouthAsianRepublics rise in revolt backed by Axis troops and airpower.

    Sept 1943 -

    Axis main Russian offensive makes good head way linking with a further offensive from North of Moscow.
    Large numbers of Soviet troops cut off.
    Moscow now totally surrounded and secured.

    Oct 1943 -

    Last Soviet troops in a destroyed
    Moscow surrender.

    Dec 1943 -

    Persia now all back in Axis hands.
    Southern SovietRepublic still in turmoil.
    Huge US task force attacks the Axis Fleet off Hawaii.
    Soviet counter attack fails to make serious ground.



     
  3. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    Ok very interesting and obviously you have put a bit of time into this however, do you really believe britain would stand by and watch Greece and Yugoslavia be invaded by the axis forces?

    Plus they British would still have gone to war because of Japanese expansion thus starting a war with all axis forces again.

    But with the invasion of the Soviet Union I doubt the Germans would have enough men to attack russia and change the actual outcome of ww2, they wouldn't risk leaving only garrison troops on the western front against 'peaceful' france and britain, and had they left enough proper front line troops with air, artillery and tank support on the western front then in my opinion they woudn't have had eough troops to engage the soviet union with.

    Now once the USA was at war with the Japanese, because of Japanese expansion Britain would be brought back into war(as I said above) thus the americans and english would ally with each other in support, eventually leading to a somewhat different D-day. If france somehow stayed neutral in all this then the eventual D-day may have been more diffuclt for the allies but still due to the germans being engaged on two fronts already it would end the same. However if France did declare war with the germans it would make the invasion of Germany a hell of alot better and easier. Becasue the English and French would have full armies not previously properly engaged in any battles due the
    armistice, as well as the whole RAF (not lost at the BoB) as well as the French navy able to participate in any landings, also france would have an opening into the north of italy allowing the allies to attack the 'soft underbelly' of europe making it four fronts for germany to defend(Soviet, North France, South France below Switzerland and the Italian pennisualar).

    You have left out in your timeline the capulation of Norway, Denmark, Belguim, Luxembourg and Holland I doubt the English would 'let' the germans just walk into these countires just to avoid a war. Plus if this
    armistice had taken place there would be no 'Vichy france'

    I doubt that the soviets would lose so many battles one after another you must remember the hugh man power russia could call on and the amount of armour that could be produced in a relatviely short time, the Germans would just be overrun the same as the historical ww2.

    Sorry mate it just dosn't sound possible.
     
  4. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    See my points above in bold.
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Probably, but those 40 extra divisions would be foot-infantry, lines-of-communications or worse divisions, while the mobile (motorised and Pz divisions) were already all in the Western Front (Eastern for you), so no great addition to the combat power of the German army, they had already cannon-fodder enough. Also, please explain how the Regia Marina and Regia Aeronautica were going to tilt the balance in favour of the Axis, considering in the case of the RM that the Black Sea was a closed one.
     
  6. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    They where several Panzer divisions in France at the time of the actual invasion of the USSR.
    Not to mention the forces deployed in North Africa, Belgium, Holland, Norway and the Balkans.
    Then we have the Kriegsmarine which can be deployed in the Baltic or anywhere else.
    The extra Luftwaffe forces available.
    Then for the Italians they would have dozens of extra divisions to deploy.
    Turkey with the Axis forces putting it under immense pressure and no prospect of British aid would allow access to the Black Sea by the Regia Marina which would be supported by Regia Aeronautica which would all support Army group south.
    These extra forces would be more than enough make sure the battle of Moscow was commenced and to allow greater gains for the Axis forces in 1942.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    If the extra units would help in removing the "turnaroud to Kiev" problem then the attack direction could have been set eastwards all the time removing even 1-1,5 months of fighting to secure the AGC´s right flank. Whether that would help to win the war I cannot say.

    Thus with more units with better battle capability in the Army group South section this problem could have been solved. The AGS was the one receiving the most troops returning from the Balkans´campaign so already a problem when Barbarossa begun. Now the extra units could be used for the early phase attack and the troops from Balkans´ would be used as reserves.
     
  8. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Great Britain,

    Im a little bit confused. How did u come up with such as scenerio? Was this in some novel, movie, video game or did you just think it up?
     
  9. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    It's only what would have very likely have happened had Lord Halifax said he would be Prime Minister after Chamberlain.
     
  10. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    No British or French ships where involved at Midway AFAIK. Please tell me how this battle ends up in Japanese victory.:rolleyes:
    Midway was at the extreme edge of Japanese supply lines. How are they getting to Hawaii? After Pearl Harbor I guarantee no Japanese convoy was ever going to get close again.
    Why would Iraq Join the Axis? IIRC wern't they part of the commonwealth? Or at least a puppet. With no France early in the war there is no Vichy government.
    They sure can try, but it wouldn't work. The sea's are just to rough


    Seems to me that you are a little weak in the Pacific war. while I GREATLY appreciate what the British, Australians, and Kiwi's(and others) did in the Pacific(and Europe, N. Africa, Crete etc.) the US could have held it's own. It would have lengthened the war, but thats it.
     
  11. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Read the posts above.
     
  12. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    "Japanese ships would all be at Midway rather than distracted taking on the Royal Navy in the Indian Ocean and East Indies."


    Er... Why?

    What reason do the Japanese have for changing the main reason for their war in the Far East - The scramble for the Natural Resources of the Dutch East Indies, Malaya, Burma and various other locations.

    Sorry... Cant see the Japs being able to secure territory and resources without their navy.
     
  13. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    "In real time Iraq did try and join the Axis in 1941 under Rashid Ali al-Gaylani government they even attacked British forces supported by German air power."

    Well they had German planes... Wouldnt go as far as to say they had 'German air power'. They didnt get on very well...
     
  14. Hawkerace

    Hawkerace Member

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    Alaska Isolated? Nar, Canada wouldn't let that happen :D!
     
  15. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    Why would all Japanese ships be in one small piece of the Pacific. As TheRedBaron stated earlier Japan wanted the oil, rubber, iron ore of the region. The reason they went to war with the US is that they thought the US would not just let them have it. You still haven't told me how, in an aircraft carrier battle how Japan having more surface ships helps them win the battle. They didn't have any more carriers that could keep up with the main fleet. No denying that taking Alaska would be a good propaganda tool but landing in October? Thats insane. IIRC The Japanese had a bit of trouble in the Aleutian chain and that was in June. Hawaii is also insane, after Pearl was attacked the US built up to much in the defense of the Island. Hawaii is a pipe dream. Couldn't happen. The best chance they had was Dec. 7 and that is only if they scrapped the DEI, and the Philippines. The best Invasion I can see of Hawaii I have seen is here: Feldpost.tv :: View topic - Adding Insult to Infamy: Hawaiian Punch, December 1941. by Glenn239(Sorry about the format. It was to good a study to let go after that forum had a small hacker attack)

    Even on Dec. 7 an invasion would have required no less than 500.000 tons in transports. Where at this time in the war(almost one year later and after being subject to attack by US submarines) is Japan getting this many transports in a merchant marine stretched far beyond it's practical limitations?
     
  16. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    ? What do you mean?
     
  17. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    They only failed because Germany was at war with Britain at the time.
    As long as Iraq continued to sell Oil to Britain it wouldnt come under threat from the British if it joined the Axis.
     
  18. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Japanese shipping and transportation wouldnt have the added burden or British Empire territory to supply and defend.
     
  19. Hawkerace

    Hawkerace Member

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    Mind you the economy and strength of America and its influence in the world would put Japan out and Britain in?

    edit: I don't even think the people of England would even let to the prime minister let Germany take then entire European continent!!!
    Halifax would be removed and then replaced with Winston Churchill
     
  20. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    I cant see Britian sitting idly by while Japan runs amok in the Pacific. Britans forigen policy in the 1920s & 30s included containment of Japan. Note that Halifax was not a pacifist. He did not favor war with Germany, but he also did not favor placing the empire at risk. Britian is very likely to be imeadiatly in the fight in the Pacific.

    In any case all this comes to 1945 and nuclear bombs dropping on Axis cities across two continents
     
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