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Help and advice sought on ww2 uniform

Discussion in 'Uniforms, Personal Gear (Kit) and Accessories' started by James777, Oct 18, 2008.

  1. James777

    James777 Member

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    Hi guys , ive a slight niggling problem concerning a US Army uniform jacket.I told some of you about my old friend and neighbor who passed away early summer.Well i was given a lot of the ww2 things and among that is whats known as an Ike jacket.
    I hung it up and thought no more about it until i showed it to a fellow who i suspect knows something more about the jacket than i do.
    I say this as he showed a little more interest in taking it off my hands than i cared for.
    I checked the awards ribbons and theres nothing out of the ordinary other than it shows 3 campaign stars on the service ribbon.
    A sargeants jacket , i cant identify the division patch or collar insignia although i tried many days since using the services of the internet.
    The collar devices are identical to the sleeve patch , and quite strange really.
    Shaped like a sheild with red top and blue beneath what appears to be scales as in scales of justice.Under those there is what looks like the German eagle only its broken into pieces.
    Stranger still is the crossbar of the scales has what looks like a swastika on one end and an eagle on the other.
    I know this jacket belonged to my friend but the patch and insignia was never explained.I never seen it until i was given it after he passed.
    Ill try to attach a pic in the hope we can identify what interests the other guy so much and perhaps ill learn what my buddy was up to during his time in the service.
     
  2. James777

    James777 Member

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    Hopefully this will work ...
     
  3. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Its the insignia for the 6850th (Nürberg/Nuremberg Trials)
    Internal Security Detachment .Internal security for the remaining 22 prisoners was provided by the Army’s 6850th Internal Security Detachment, under the direction of the commandant of Nuremberg Prison, Colonel Andrus.


    [​IMG]

    Uniform worn by Sergeant Parker of the 6850th Internal Security Detachment, the unit responsible for guarding the Nazis tried by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg.
     
    GRW, James777 and Slipdigit like this.
  4. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    I wanted to add also that I find it interesting that on the lapels is the collar brass for the Coast Artillery. Not ones for the Military Police.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. James777

    James777 Member

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    Wow...im staggered..so old Herb was guarding Nazi prisoners at Nuremburg.How the heck did he get that job i wonder.
    What i know is he served with the 9th US Army in 44 , 1st US Army in 45 and then 49th brigade.
    He served in France , Belgium and Germany.Was at Omaha Beach head , the Jersey Isles and the battle of the bulge as well as several other areas of conflict.
    How does a regular soldier get selected for a job like that?Or was it blind luck so to speak?
    This subject never once was mentioned in our many long chats about his WW2 experience.
    Thank you JCFalkenberg lll
     
  6. James777

    James777 Member

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    I also find this very interesting ( Shades of Sgt Shultz creeping in )
    As you mention it's not military police , i can assure you however it's genuine.
    I just found in the pocket a card which says "internal security detachment " then my friends name rank and number ,it says bearer is authorised to enter the international military tribunal prison Nurnberg and bears his signature and the Ops officers signature.
    On the reverse is that crest again in bright colored print and the number 78.
    That leaves us with why was Herb chosen who was artillary?..or was he
     
  7. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Well I hope you can find out LOL. It is a mystery to me how a Coast Artilleryman wound up as a Nuremberg guard.
     
  8. James777

    James777 Member

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    I'll sure try to find out , from what i learned so far only about 100 or so armpatches and lapel devices were made.This could be accurate or not , just what i was told so far.
    The jacket is genuine , id card verifys he was there , patch and lapel devices show he was a guard.
    Just like the thing isnt it..i ask about the scales of justice insignia and get answered accurately only to leave me with a bigger question..or maybe not.
    Was it written in stone that only military police were guards at the prison..im positive it wasnt , cant think anything else when i have the answer sitting right here.
    Ill get back to this thread when i have my answer to give you after research.
     
  9. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Thanks. The patches and crests are very rare of course so that would be why the person you mentioned would be very intersted. I reconized the patch from my military insignia collecting society, ASMIC.
     
  10. James777

    James777 Member

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    Well.....mystery solved :)
    Pretty much anybody could have been selected to go to Nuremberg.It didnt have to be Military Police.Ive spent a quite harrowing day reading all kinds of accounts from soldiers "tapped" to go while waiting to go home.
    Artillary men , Bandsmen , didnt seem to matter.Id imagine an exemplary service record would be a requirement.
    Ill try to attach the link i was reading , i just googled who were the guards at Nuremberg and found hours of reading material.
    Does this solve the armpatch and lapel devices mixed with an artillary collar device ? I suspect it might unless the insignia is strictly a Military Police one , dunno yet but i'll get there.
     
  11. James777

    James777 Member

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  12. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hey James-great Ike Jacket! Also, I wouldn't sell something like that to anyone. This is THE first one of these i have seen. I collect mainly German stuff but, on occasion look at G.I stuff.

    About 18 or so months ago, my ex-roommates Father's jacket turned up on a Swedish Militaria site. My ex-roomie-did some checking of his own just to make sure-and only one man with his fathers exact name-had served in the Army in WWII. His dad was a Master Sergeant that served ina Tank Destroyer unit. The jacket was still complete with all insignia-patch and all. Anyway, I couldn't afford to but it at the time, and then went back to the site about a week later-and saw that it had sold. It was selling for about $350.00. Well, I learned from somebody, that this jacket had been bought by somebody from Ulrichs-and who had it listed on their site for some 550 pounds. I was going to buy it to give to my es-roommate. My ex-roomie said that after his father died-that his WWII stuff was chucked into the garbage bin behind his apartment building. I guess someone got lucky and rescued it.
     
  13. James777

    James777 Member

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    Im still a little shocked C.Evans to be honest.Its a nice jacket for sure but the connections and things ive read today while it hung (no pun intended)there silently...i had no idea.
    He was my first friend on coming here to the US from Scotland last year,kinda like that song..desperadoes waiting for a train.
    Im reading his service summary now , it reads like a John Wayne script.
    Omaha beach head 23 Oct 44 , Jersey Isles 28 nov 44 , battle of the bulge 17 dec 44 ,Siegfried line 8 feb 45 , Roer crossing 27 feb 45 , Remagen 13 mar 45 , defense of FUSA 15 apr 45 ..and then this Nuremberg assignment ..quite a guy my old friend was.

    He was a farmer when i met him , baseball fan , we'd quaff cold beer and sit under the tree , talk about everything under the sun..except Nurenberg , we didnt cover that..wow

    When he got hospitalised his nephews took care of things , i was given the ww2 items , pictures , sidearm after he passed away.I guess now i know why , kinda letting me see a side i never knew.
     
  14. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hi James, for sure you don't see these that were worn during the trials often. I've never seen that exact shield insignia before. I know a nice lady who collects rare American uniforms and insignia-and I know she has some items that were worn at Nuremberg in her collection.

    Anyway, your friend must have been one heck of a great Gent to know-and i'd have loved to have heard his stories-let alone to be allowed to look at his WWII items.

    You have got a great mans collection there-and please-do not let anyone talk you out of any of it. If you ever HAVE to sell the items for some reason? please make sure you sell it to someone who will keep the items together and not sell them off individually.

    I only have a very small grouping myself-consisting of three pieces. A WWI German Marine NCO's Preliminary Award Doc-for his 1914 EK2-and I also have his 1914 EK1-or so it's thought to be his, as it came with the other two items. One things for sure-both crosses were stamped K.O-for the Kings Own Medals maker.

    Anyway, I am glad to see your rare items posted here.

    Take care and best regards-plus-Welcome Aboard--Carl.
     
  15. James777

    James777 Member

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    Your right there Carl , one thing ive heard time after time is he was a great man and a kind man , i know this to be so personally too.
    There is a lot of items here , some i can make sense of and others i cant.
    For example theres a silver german cross with swastika in a presentation box..how did that get there..its real without doubt as i researched the maker from berlin.
    Theres a german soldiers campaign badge as well...hmm
    All kinds of documents that tie everything together so as long as i am caretaker of Herbs gear it wont be split up.
    Ill post pictures of the items and a better picture of the Ike jacket this evening.
    Best regards jake
     
  16. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hi Jake, you have my complete respect for this and glad to hear you will not let the items be sold-and or split up. So many dealers ruin a Soldiers "life" by selling off his things seperately. Seeing that really chafes my hide.
     
  17. James777

    James777 Member

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    Thanks Carl , thing about Herb was he never married...never had kids,lived alone all those years.His family were from N.Y so ive no idea how he wound up alone in Pa.
    He was into his 80's when i met him , you'd never have guessed though , still had a full head of black hair , no i'd have guessed in his 60's at best.
    Farmed here all his days and widely respected.
    It kinda tells me something that he chose to mention to his nephews that i should end up with the artifacts.Im only returning the respect he has shown in me by playing caretaker until its time i passed them on eventually..all things must pass and all that.

    I had no idea of the rarity and significance of the jacket, i was like you , had never seen the insignia before and my mind boggled due to the swatika being on the devices.I had an inkling it was some kind of clerical penpusher rating badge, i had no idea..and now looking through it all things begin to make sense almost.I had searched for days for a clue on line as to what it meant , couldnt find a thing.
    So a big thanks to JCFalkenbergerlll for pointing me straight to it.

    I couldn't have been more wrong ..clerical rating indeed!! It appears old Herb was never late for a fight and had seen plenty going by the service record summary.
    Ive some pictures to post , the german cross i cant identify although ive tried,it makes the least sense as its still in its presentation box.
     
  18. James777

    James777 Member

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    Suppose i'd best get it cleaned ..
     
  19. James777

    James777 Member

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    A quick update on the "why was an artillary man at Nuremberg" Im told the rank is a specialty rank and most likely intelligence.We know Herb was of german heritage and spoke german.Its most likely he was used as an interpreter..or so im told going by the jacket.
    I'll do some research and keep looking, im on the right track i think , thanks guys.
     
  20. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    That makes sense as the the chevrons on his uniform are for the T/5 Technician Fifth Grade.

    [​IMG]
     

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