Hetzer action histories?

The german Hetzer is one of the more impressive (IMO) german tank killers, yet in my readings I have run into very few mentions of Hetzers in action, which divisions they served with, etc.
Can anyone point me anywhere?

 

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/hetzer.htm

Try this (Achtung Panzer is great!)

 

how did I not think of that... Thanks dasreich (good sig quote btw!)... I'll be printing most of achtungpanzer.com at work tomorrow....

Keep em coming, if anyone else has anything.
I'll add- Ferdinand/Elephants after Kursk? anyone?

 

After Kursk, the Elefants were modified, then sent to Italy in 44. But i have seen little mention of their actions.

 

I've also read that they were sent to Italy... But like yourself, I haven't read anything much after that. But I must say, these forum discussions have jump-started my research again. SO maybe I'll answer my own question...

 

The Hetzer was a very good tank killer, very cheap to build (with PzKfw 38(t) chasises). It was rough in its look, but was very fats, manouvrable. armoured and with good gun. It is incredible that that little thing could destroy a huge JS-II!!!

And about the Elephant. It was a great tank killer. My grandfather commanded them in action in Italy, when he was with 26. Panzerdivision (9. Panzergrenadierregiment, 2. Batallion). They hid them in hills and between trees and use their 88s against the British and American tanks at 1.000 metres plus!!! The allies did never know what the hell happened... But they were not used against tanks in close-combat for two simple reason: the terrain did not allow it and because it was two slow and not manouvrable for close combat. But their gun and armour made them excellent self-propelled artillery.

 

There are no Hetzer combat histories available as far as I know at the present time. There is a book that covers one of the SS jagdpanzer abteilungs in short forum during the last 2 months east of Berlin. Berlin im Todeskampf and another book by Wilhelm Tieke.......I think ?

E

 

Hmmm... The Elephant/Ferdinand is one of my personal favorites, but I have read some negative reviews of the machine. True, the gun was one of the best and the armor was nearly invulnerable. But, I've read that the Ferdinands were mechanically horrible, and they were rather hard to maneuver. Not to mention the fuel consumption issues with all of the German heavy vehicles. Did your grandfather mention anything about these issues?

If we were to compare, I'd have to go with the Hetzer being superior if only because of the ease and cost of manufacture.

Erich, if there is an English version of this book available, I'd love to know about it. Is Wilhelm Tieke the author of this one?

 

I thinkhats the general view every accpount of he Elefant gives. But i guess tha as long as it can remain static with a good killing area to its front, the it would be dealy. But unfortunatly, amored vehicles have to move at some point, and this is what let the Elefant down

 

That is correct Bish. Using them in defense, they are an awesome weapon. Unfortunately, the Germans used them in the offensive role at Kursk and we know how that turned out.

 

Yes, my grandfather says that the Elephants had many mechanical trouble even in 1944, where they had been improved a lot. They only moved them to retreat or advance for roads and motorways. Never to engage enemy armoured vehicles at close-range, because the problems came up then. The gear-boxes and the engines broke when they turned around. And it was a problem to move those slow and big things for the Italian country's horrible roads... But as I said, when it fought in that way, defensively, perfectly hidden it was lethal!

 

Isn't it also true that the Elefant had no defensive machine-gun armament ? I seem to remember reading somewhere about emergency MG42 mountings being used on these tanks in Russia.

 

CrazyD :

The books are in Deutsch. Ever here of RK Jakob Lobmeyer ? One of the best Panzer Kommanduer's in the field. Kommanded SS JgdPz. 561 ? in the last months and the destruction this unit did was unreal against Soviet Armor. All with the little Hetzer waiting in ambush. I do believe he is one of the only 1-5 that received the panzer assault badge for over 250 assaults......or so it is claimed.

E

 

Martin: indeed, the Elephant did not have machine guns on its first version. When it was used on Kurrsk, most of them were destroyed by Russian infantry with Molotov cocktails and hand-grenades!!! What a waste!

 

After Kursk, the survivin vehcles were modified. This inclded increased frontal armour, a bow MG and a new commanders cupola.

This article includes the Elefant. I hope it helps

http://www.wwiitech.net/main/germany/vehicles/pzkpfw6/index.html

[ 19 July 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Bish OBE ]

 

Erich--you got me on this one. I have never heard of a Panzer Assault Badge for 250 Assaults--I have seen ones for 100 assaults--had heard about ones going up to 150 assaults (but never seen a pic) This would make for some excellent discussion on the Wehrmacht forums.

 

Good stuff! Anti tank warfare is my favorite subject...
The article Bish posted sums it up. Amusing- the design forwarded by Porsche must have been pretty bad- from what Forty says (Tanks of WW2), it took Hitler no time to select the Henschel design. One has to wonder- how many modifications were made before Ferdindnds were put into use. Without the contract, with the Ferdinands coming about as an ad-hoc vehicle, they could not have been expected to be high in general quality, especially in the testing phase. One has to wonder, with mor backing and support, if the Ferdinand could have been far more effective. And consider that the Ferdinands debuted in July 43, far before some of the more impressive german TDs- Jagdpanther (debut summer 44), Hetzer (spring 44). The only comparable vehicle at the time was the StuG F8. And it could not possibly mount the 88 the Ferdinand mounted, which was the L70 version, the best of the 88s.
It's somewhat suprising- Hitler liked Dr. Porsche, the Ferdinand was big (which we all know Hitler loved!), and it was designed to mount the 88- yet is was essentially shelved.
Well, it seems the germans learned their lesson- both completely new tanks which appeared after 43, the Panther and King Tiger, had "hunting" versions designed right off the bat.

Friedrich, did your grandfather mention anything about how many Ferdinands were in service with his unit? I have seen many sets of different statistics for how many elephants survived Kursk, and I'd love to hear more about their use afterward.
Such an impressive vehicle- who cares if they break down? They're just so damn bad-ass

 

I think he said that they had like three or four of them, I am not sure.

 

I asked him. There were only three!!! But they destroyed 30+ enemy tanks and many more of other vehicles...

 

Friedrich :

What unit were the Elephants from ?

SS Jagdpanzer Abteilung 561 info is in Wilhelm Tieke's book (German)/ Das Ende Zwischen Oder und Elbe Der Kampf um Berlin 1945. A rather extensive amount of info on the unit descriptions of their actions and operations, as well as quotes from a manuscript prepared by JaKob Lobmeyer himslef, describing the actions of the unit, as well as a few narations from other members ......included are equipment types, mostly Hetzers mentioned......this from a friend who owns the book.
Lobmeyre was given the command of the 15th SS Sturmgeschutze Batterie and went into action around Danzig at the end of 1944. Going into action near Frankfurt an der Oder, his unit finally merged with Ss Jagdpanzer Abteilung z.b.v. 562 and he was promoted to Hauptsturmfuhrer/ February 15, 1945 ? / under the direct command of Heeresgruppe Weichsel.
After a Soviet breakthrough on 18 February 45, the Hetzer's of Lobmeyer's command were tasked with the protection of the right flank/ near Güben, the Hetzers stalked and destroyed more than 30+ T-34's. assault troops destroyed 8 more. The tally for the day was 50 Soviet tanks, and more than 100 pak. On march 15 he was decorated the DK in Gold and the following day the close combat clasp in Bronze. After this the Hetzer Abteilung was held in reserve for defence of Berlin. South of Frankfurt on 16 April Lobmeyer now had his own battlegroup with around 2,000 men under the V SS Gebirgs Korps. 30 April 45 he was decorated with the KC.
Retreating the Hetzer unit met up with SS Schwere Abt. 502 near Halbe. 28 April, 45 Lobmeyer receives the Oakleaves to his KC.....but it was never presented.
1 May, 45 all Hetzers are destroyed by the Abteilung and it withdraws on foot and reaches the elbe on 9 may, 45. They are captured by Soviet troops but somehow swim across the Elbe and break up into small groups walking home.
Lobmeyer through the stuggles of war receives the clos combat clasp in silver and a single destruction tank strip. Army Honour roll clasp and the rare Panzer Assault badge in Gold for 200 engagements.........true or not ? Possibly the only one given ?
this from a version of "Aces of the Reich" and a few notes. Personally I'd like to get a copy of the above book as it would shed a bit more light/truth to the man and his unit....

E