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Historian Concludes "Likely" Finnish Involvement in Atrocities

Discussion in 'Concentration, Death Camps and Crimes Against Huma' started by KJ Jr, Feb 15, 2019.

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  1. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member

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    Just read this in Time mag online. Not sure if I am surprised or not. Regardless, many had a hand in it.

    "An Israeli Holocaust historian praised authorities in Finland on Sunday for publishing a report that concluded Finnish volunteers serving with Nazi Germany’s Waffen-SS “very likely” took part in World War II atrocities, including the mass murder of Jews."

    'Very Likely' Finnish Volunteers Helped Kill Jews in World War II: Report
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    It's a curious one, this.
    The full report in English is here:
    https://www.arkisto.fi/uploads/Julkaisut/sarjajulkaisut/SS-VOLUNTEERS_verkkoon.pdf

    I haven't finished reading it yet, but of all the SS divisions it's moderately safe to say the Wiking was really pretty clean (by comparison, & despite, obviously, being part of a criminal organisation).
    The report so far is maybe a tad vague on what's specifically what, and appears to work to a pre-conceived line of 'they were in the East - they were guilty'. Really not sure yet, as it appears to cite what can be termed as military or command-directed actions as evidence of specific atrocity.
    Dunno.
    Think I'll read it all tonight, but I'm not entirely sure what the point is here. There may be a case that Finland & other countries that had Wiking volunteers are sometimes a tad relaxed about their chaps' activities, but I must confess a growing mild cynicism about the SWC's attempts to justify it's future existence now that almost all the original Nazis to hunt are dead.
    I'm not going to defend the SS anywhere, really, but do think there's a place for some objectivity on who did what, where, to who & why.
     
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  3. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Time focus their attention just on Jews. What about other people - Goys?

    The Chosen people have their own place everywhere, even in death they are the Chosen and separated from Goys. In their own precious Holocaust there is no place for the Gentiles.

    Finns had their own death camps, but these camps were Judenfrei (Ger: free of Jews), reserved just for Russian civilians, kids, women elderly. A honest study of this chapter of Finnish history would have been welcome too.
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    Stay classy...

    It's a report from a Simon Wiesenthal Centre historian.
    They're a Jewish organisation, with a strong interest in the Jewish aspects of the Holocaust.
    It reads a little oddly for its constant use of 'likely', 'maybe', 'probably', but its writer is allowed, I hope, to focus wherever he pleases.
     
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  5. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    But of course, he is entitled to write whatever pleases him, but his cherry-picking of "victims" is quite eloquent, or even better: disqualifying.
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The camps were Judenfrei because the captured Russian Jews(POWs & civilians) were turned over to the Germans.

    It was done...and completed a few years ago.
     
  7. harolds

    harolds Member

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    I too have some problems with the lack of concreteness. Words such as "likely", "probably", etc. means that there isn't concrete proof. It's sort of like convicting on an accusation. The division (roughly 13,000-15,000 men) was made up of mostly Germans. The Finns were a minority in the one regiment (Nordland) of that division. I haven't read the entire report but my feeling is that until something is proven, they are innocent.
     
  8. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    The truth is that the most of European countries were willing collaborators. Europe under the Third Reich was more united than the present day EU. That is forbidden truth that everyone wants to deny. After 1943 all of the Axis collaborators started pretending to be victims because it was clear that the Russians are comming.

    Contrary to statements of rather amateurish »article«, Waffen SS was a volunteer organization, comprising of willing executioners. Therefore, speaking in terms of probability that some of them participated in crimes against humanity is a joke. It is much more appropriate to speak of high degree of certainty that crimes have happened and that members of Waffen SS were all 20th century Terminators. SS is simply a Horrible bunch of human turd and Finnish Waffen SS wasn’t exception. They certainly all committed horrible crimes because that was their objective, the reason of existence. Clean Finnish hand is the Cold War fairy tale.
     
  9. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    "Likely" is vastly not enough for moral judgments.
    It's an equivalent of have you stopped beating your wife?

    As long as it's "likely" those people are innocent.
     
  10. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a source for that?
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    SHALOM
     
  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    It's known that the Finns and the Germans swapped their POWs.
    Random Soviet POWs captured by the Finns were exchanged for Finns serving in the Soviet Army and captured by the Germans.
    It had nothing to do with turning over Jews to the Germans, as far as I know.

    In fact, many Finnish Jews served in the Finnish Army, sometimes alongside Wehrmacht units and even SS-units.
     
  13. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    From previous discussions labeling the Finnish camps as "death camps" seems pretty questionable unless you have evidence that suggest that they were indeed focused on it.
     
  14. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Well, Finns said they did not have enough food to feed the inmates of Finnish death camps and it appears here that it's widely acceptable excuse. Kosher, so to speak. Well, you have the right to support that explanation.
    Now, let me use the same excuse for German camps:
    Germany did not have enough food for poper nutrition of inmates in their labour concentration camps. Reasons were numerous: British naval blokade, reduced imports od food, carpet bombardment of food processing facilities, etc. As a consequence mortality rate has increased and it was necessary to take care of dead inmates. Incinerination was accepted as technically adequate alternative to solve the problem of accrual of dead labourers as a consequence of the increased mortality rate.
    So where the problem is?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    So a deliberate policy of exterminating entire racial, ethnic, religious, social & political groups, civilian & military, from babies to the very elderly, with the intention of wiping them utterly from the face of the earth, was exactly the same as a small country completely overwhelmed by prisoners taken in a massive assault against their nation.
    OK...

    How did things go for those Soviet/aggressor prisoners on return to the motherland.
    Not so well really.

    Is it chilly up on that moral high ground?
     
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  16. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I don't think you've understood the point. I was asked to prove that deaths of inmates in Finnish camps were premeditated, intentional. I can't prove that and it is almost impossible to prove the intent either in case of German camps. Simply, there isn't enough evidence to support that. What we may prove with certain degree of confidence is that certain people were relocated before the final solution could be found. As far I know, Madagascar was one of options.
    I am talking here about the proof beyond any reasonable doubt. Now you may say it is "well known fact", but that isn't proof. It is difficult after 70+ years of propaganda echo chamber distinguish lies from truth, when asking questions abut certain aspects of war is outlawed. Lies disqualify.
    Just listen to former Israeli minister Shulamit Aloni:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  17. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Indeed, you must know very well how chilly it feels up there.

    Look, look. You clearly and undeniably apply double standards. It appears that in your book there are two kinds of mas murderers: good mass murderers and bad mass murderers, based on their ethnicity. There are also unworthy and worthy victims in your black book, again based on their ethnicity.Why?

    I guess I know - tradition:
    It is very likely that you know that these "aggressors" dumped into Finnish death camps were exclusively civilians, from babies to the very elderly.

    Stay classy...



    PS: Let me just remind you that Finns were aggressors in Eastern Karelia and not the opposite. They had the same intentions as the Nazis: to relocate unworthy people from "their" land, no matter where, to the Hell if necessary. So please, stay classy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    -

    I'm confused...Are the good mass murderers the Soviets or the Finns?

    I am further confused....Who is worthy & unworthy? The Finnish Russians or the Russian Finns?

    You see, you completely neglect what the Soviets were doing to their politically unreliable ethnic Finns during this time.



    Actually, it is highly unlikely...Some 22,903 Soviet POWs died after being captured by the Finns, out of between 64,000-72,000 Soviet POWs. Hardly "exclusively" civilian.
    Here again, most of these deaths occurred about the same time as most of the deaths of the civilian Russians - The first 8 months of 1942, January through August.


    If you only came close to that bar


    Curious...I could have sworn that the Sovs were the ones that invaded in 1939-40...Or are we now rewriting history? You remember...Lies agreed upon.
     
  19. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Let’s test your line of reasoning by applying the same yardstick to British Empire and Britons, as a nation.
    For centuries Britain was undeniably an aggressor nation across the globe, harsh rulers over »savages«, global plunderers and murderers. All these poor people under merciless rule of Britons suffered, were overwhelmed and suppressed, murdered, beheaded for minor misconducts against Her Majesty’s Rule. Atrocities have happened on the global scale. Please, don’t tell me that was different - Britons were the same beasts as you claim Nazis were. Or Bolsheviks, if you insist.

    Britons haven’t got what, according to you, they deserved as aggressors. Should I care if Britons, »from babies to the very elderly«, were dumped into death camps. According to your reasoning I shouldn’t.

    I will not ask you do you have a sense of shame. I know, you are a Briton.
     
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    It's quite clear in the case of the German camps that they were indeed death camps. I.e. that a significant part of their purpose was the death of the inmates. Gas chambers are pretty conclusive in that regard. On the other hand there's been decent evidence presented that suggest otherwise for the Finnish camps.

    While the pre 20th century behavior of the British is certainly not admirable by todays standards in many cases it's a long way from that of the Nazis or the Bolsheviks. Extermination was never the goal of British policy except for a few religious cases (such as the Thugee).
    Quite a straw man you have developed there. The question is do your really not understand or are you trolling?
    \
    I'd be careful with the insults if I were you. The old adage about stones and glass houses comes to mind.
     
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