I had another area of my ignorance exploded today. I always thought that Taiwan had 'always' been Chinese, but imagine my surprise to find that it's history went more like this: Indigenous population, similar ethnic group to those of other Pacific islands like the Phillipeans (apparently head-hunters). 17th Century, the Dutch take over the island. Massacre a few thousand natives, and settle in. When Manchuria conquered China and overthrew the last of the Ming Dynsaty the last army the Ming's possessed retreated to Taiwan, kicked the Dutch out, and started up the independant island of Formosa. (Independance quickly reverts to being under Chinese control). 19th Century, Japan wars with China and as part of that they invaded Formosa and took control of it. And kept control of it. After WW2, China was given Formosa to look after as an occupied territory of Japan. Eventually, as we all know, Chiang's lot (Nationalists) ended up being routed into Formmosa by Mao's lot (Communist). As technically Formiosa was not Chinese, but a Japanese territory being looked after by 'China' this caused many diplomatic headaches... This has no real point, I just found it interesting
Indeed, I'd say it would rather void the Chinese claims on this island. If they can claim it as their own, why couldn't the Dutch?
lol - here comes the Dutch East Indies Empire again Nationalist China was only allowed to stay there because America (and probably a few others) did not want to recognise Communist China. Interestingly, both Nationalist and Communist China claimed that Formosa was part of China (when it wasn't) and that all China was ruled by one party - themselves (when it wasn't). Taiwan has recently made the step of announcing that, although they still believe Taiwan to be part of China, China is currently ruled by 2 different governments. The Communists refuse to even go that far. :roll: People - who'd put up with them? Oh, and I thought of a reason for this thread - it shows well how even apparently insignificant places can have interesting and less-than-straightforward histories which have an impact on the world at large.
yes..its intresting when you relize that every single homeland and nation at one time belonged to some one else ....ostragoths,carthaginians ,mohicans,neandertals...where u now reside was at one time some other tribes homeland.....think how many peoples were wiped out before there was any written record.......we,ve only been keeping written history what 2 or 3000 years...weve been walking the planet for 200000 years?...thats a lot of unrecorded genocides...
Not really, as in the time before writing there were very few humans, very little civilization (since that quickly spawned writing almost everywhere) and therefore very little war or organized violence. But it is a fair point that no people can truly "claim" a land on the grounds that they have always lived there, since they didn't, as long as you go far enough back.
You gentlemen have been arguing for nothing because the facts given are quite wrong i'm afraid....Taiwan is indigenious,that is right. However,Taiwan has always been regarded as Chinese land since some dynasty which i have forgotte..|the Chinese simply did not develop it...During the Ming,it was already developed and the Dutch won it from the Ming.
The date of that claim seems quite significant. As far as I know the island has not been a part of China before the late Ming, which would put its subjugation in the 17th century still.
As far as i know,The Chinese always laid claim to Taiwan..it would have been quite silly for china to have adopted japan as a vassal and left taiwan out of the picture
So you are saying that Taiwan has been under Chinese rule longer than Alaska (from Russia), Louisiana (French), and California (Spanish) under American Rule.
Taiwan history Taiwan has been under Hans rule and governing since Han Dynasty 256BC to 234 AD and in fact has been pretty much left alone for the following chaning Dynasties. It is until late Ming Dynasty AD1400 that the Han Army and navy invade and re-took the island from the Dutch who were developing/ ceasing trading post around the globe, they invade it more or less for national pride. The Han general holds the island and develop it until Ming Dynasty and whole of China was overrun by Manchus. Thereafter, the Manchu set up the Qing Dynasty and Fourth Emperor of Qing KangXi retook the island without much blood shed as the Han Governor is already yoo courrpted. The Qing hold it until the 2nd opium war and lost the entire mordenised navy to Imperial Japanese Navy and are force to surrender Whole of Taiwan to Japan as compensation (i think AD1905). Part of Japan's WW2 soldier are Korean and Taiwanese actually. In 1945, after Japan lose WW2, Taiwan was being "return" to China under Chiang. Last but not least, Mao Communist swept south wards from Northen China and Chiang was force to retreat to Taiwan, saying "They'll be back". Seem like it'll never happen. In my opinion, Taiwan will be "return" to Mainland China in next 10 - 20 years time, not by force but by China's shear massive ecomonic poweress, given current mess in Taiwan politics, unless some hero/ leader are there to turn it all around. Tat's all folk!
if formosa was always occupied by the chinese ...who were the native headhunters that the dutch shot down when they took control with musketry...were the headhunters actually chinese in blacface makeup and grass skirts?
Control over an area did not mean and still does not mean conversion of that area into an epicentre of the occupant's culture and economic strength. In the past, "control" over an area usually meant little more than that the local chieftains paid tribute to the overlord in return for being left alone to run their own affairs. It is very well possible (though I admit I don't know the facts) that the head hunters the Dutch encountered were in fact tributaries to the Chinese Emperor, who therefore considered their lands his own property.
Then perhaps the Red Indians should be given back their piece of land if Majorwoody's theory is correct. Anyway,there were Chinese living on Formosa as well as natives.
i see your point ...where i live now was, 150 years ago claimed by mexico . there were no mexicans within hundreds of miles only pomos...there are still pomos here today and the mexicans are now reclaiming lake co .california by sheer weight of numbers...as in all of the southwest
